Miscellaneous Saxophone related post count?

[cappers]

it must be difficult, and not a little bit intimidating, for real newcomers to feel comfortable around well established sites full of us geniuses but really they are where the life is.

I joined the forum for sax related issues and am not so interested in off-topic stuff, although I appreciate that it can add some variety and fun. But, as a beginner I have at times felt really out of my depth on here.

Concepts and techniques that are second nature to experienced players can seem overwhelming to a beginner. Responses to questions vary from succinct and to the point, to opinionated, dogmatic, obscure, or confusing. Comments on one's progress can also seem harsh at times despite being well intentioned. I'm now wary of posting my 'progress' (or lack of it) for feedback due to over critical comments. I know I sound and play like a beginner - thats because I am one! I know what I should be doing to improve but it takes time. Sometimes I feel expectations are too high, a bit like suggesting to a learner reader who's just mastered the alphabet that they should write in Iambic pentameter.

Nevertheless this is a great forum and a mine of information with many interesting and illuminating threads. The TTS pages and resources have been very helpful to me as a beginner,

 

[Jeanette]

But, as a beginner I have at times felt really out of my depth on here.

Concepts and techniques that are second nature to experienced players can seem overwhelming to a beginner. Responses to questions vary from succinct and to the point, to opinionated, dogmatic, obscure, or confusing. Comments on one's progress can also seem harsh at times despite being well intentioned. I'm now wary of posting my 'progress' (or lack of it) for feedback due to over critical comments. I know I sound and play like a beginner - thats because I am one! I know what I should be doing to improve but it takes time. Sometimes I feel expectations are too high, a bit like suggesting to a learner reader who's just mastered the alphabet that they should write in Iambic pentameter.

Interesting you should say that, we have such a varied membership. Depth of experience is really useful but I know when I had trainees at work it was really difficult to remember how little you once knew.

Hopefully members will keep that comment in mind.

Maybe we should consider a beginners only section with only certain vetted experienced members given access to help? @Pete Thomas

Would experienced members if invited be happy to post there?

@cappers might you find it useful. Are there any other less experienced members that would appreciate a separate space until they gained more confidence?

Jx

 

[cappers]

Thank you @Jeanette I don't think a separate 'vetted' section is necessary, there is the beginners' subforum. I don't mean to sound critical and fully understand the different levels of ability and approaches to explaining things, and that people mean well in their criticism and suggestions.

I was a microbiologist specialising in molecular bacteriology. Many students found it difficult to grasp the concepts and techniques that I took for granted, and I often forgot that once they were new and confusing to me too.

I have a teacher and now a mentor (band's MD) and they are better placed to answer my queries but there are times when a quick answer is sought, and it is usually supplied here.

Being a late starter I get frustrated with myself and seeming lack of progress. I've been successful in most of life's endeavours so find it irritating with my apparent slowness in getting to grips with playing, theory et al. I have to remind myself that two years ago crotchets, quavers, semitones, major 7ths, 251s, ABBAs were a total mystery and that stumbling through Baa Baa Black Sheep was a milestone for me.

I know I'll never be great but I persevere because of the satisfaction and pleasure learning to play gives me.

 

[mizmar]

it must be difficult, and not a little bit intimidating, for real newcomers to feel comfortable

Sometimes I feel expectations are too high,

This is what I was trying to get at above

I think the hardest source of new, on-topic, discussions to hold on to are feedback requests from learners

Would experienced members if invited be happy to post there?

I'm not sure that'd work. It's the job of teachers and the thing with teachers is people pay them to be told hard truths and so find criticism easier to swallow... A principle Sigmund Freud developed insisting on patients paying so they have incentives to take advice. The only useful thing ever to come out of psychoanalysis.
IMHO
Anyway

But what might help is if all the learners feedback threads, blogs etc whare clearly collected so that someone wanting to do that would see how it goes, not feel alone, feel community etc. ?
Maybe with a little intro sticky etc?
Thoughts and guidelines for submitting
Thoughts and guidelines for commenting

I also think the hugely generous folks who do give feedback would be encouraged to keep doing so in a slightly more focused context?

 

[Pete Thomas]

But what might help is if all the learners feedback threads, blogs etc whare clearly collected so that someone wanting to do that would see how it goes, not feel alone, feel community etc. ?

Something like this?

Beginners' discussions

A section of threads for beginners sourced from various subforums

cafesaxophone.com

 

[mizmar]

Something like this?

Beginners' discussions

A section of threads for beginners sourced from various subforums

cafesaxophone.com

Hands up, I didn't check!

But that just looks like any old sub forum / category/tag.

So, how about some specific guidelines?
Maybe even lower visibility in New/Latest?
eg ignored by default and opt in to participate?

Just thoughts

 

[Targa]

Interesting you should say that, we have such a varied membership. Depth of experience is really useful but I know when I had trainees at work it was really difficult to remember how little you once knew.

Hopefully members will keep that comment in mind.

Maybe we should consider a beginners only section with only certain vetted experienced members given access to help? @Pete Thomas

Would experienced members if invited be happy to post there?

@cappers might you find it useful. Are there any other less experienced members that would appreciate a separate space until they gained more confidence?

Jx

As you’ve said there for an experienced person it might be difficult to remember how little they knew or how they overcame a problem years before.
Whereas someone with only a year or two might be able to say I had that problem and learnt ‘this’ from advice given by ‘them’.

 

[PigSquealer]

Being a late starter I get frustrated with myself and seeming lack of progress. I've been successful in most of life's endeavours so find it irritating with my apparent slowness in getting to grips with playing, theory et al. I have to remind myself that two years ago crotchets, quavers, semitones, major 7ths, 251s, ABBAs were a total mystery and that stumbling through Baa Baa Black Sheep was a milestone for me.

I know I'll never be great but I persevere because of the satisfaction and pleasure learning to play gives me.

In two years you’ve accomplished a lot. One self motivation thing I did was making a play list. Drop a song of difficulty or sick of playing and replace with new option. The change to tail end of practice time.

Keep at it !

 

[Pete Effamy]

As you’ve said there for an experienced person it might be difficult to remember how little they knew or how they overcame a problem years before.
Whereas someone with only a year or two might be able to say I had that problem and learnt ‘this’ from advice given by ‘them’.

This might be partly true, but as fighters remember the details of various battle scars, I’m sure that most professional players also carry the “scars” of bigger obstacles along the way.
I think a significant difference might be in the “why” when learning. A professional probably never took their eye off the destination, so powering through was the only option. It’s why seemingly flippant answers come from some.

“Learn A to X and that’s it”. “Do I need all of that?” Wouldn’t have been considered.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But that just looks like any old sub forum / category/tag.

It isn’t a subforum, is a feed/filter of all beginner posts from any subforum

So, how about some specific guidelines?
Maybe even lower visibility in New/Latest

I have no idea how to do that. Some subforums are filtered out, but otherwise the posts are (by definition of new) in chronological order.

eg ignored by default and opt in to participate?

Can you elaborate on what you mean, maybe with an example? We are restricted by the capabilities of the software itself, my limited abilities to recode/customise and/or being able to pay 3rd party developers to do stuff which is beyond those .

 

[mizmar]

I'm really just thinking of the top of my head - if the idea of a swimming pool - rather than the ocean with occasional rip currents - for some beginner questions, is interesting.

If it was a Forum at the level you have "Main Discussions" , and the ignore function was working, then it could be ignored, by default, by everyone. People would have to either visit the Forum on purpose or un ignore it.
That might cut down a bit on some noise amongst the responses? Maybe even encourage feedback amongst beginners! Or such like?

But it'd be worth a discussion with some of the folks, cappers and others, that'v recently availed themselves of the collective wisdom

 

[Grumps]

Whereas someone with only a year or two might be able to say I had that problem and learnt ‘this’ from advice given by ‘t and hem’.

Having been a witness to this sort of interaction on sax forums since the late 90's, it's actually very common for folks to just pop up as rank amateurs in either their playing or repairing skills and position themselves as experts in a matter of no time. Not to say it's all bad, as I've watched folks gain expertise in both playing and repairing saxophones on these forums and grow within their chosen field to become true pros and/or experts. Then of course there are the pretenders. You don't need more rules though, to weed out their opinions hoping to better serve new players. Eventually they're exposed and the cream rises to the top.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thank you @Jeanette I don't think a separate 'vetted' section is necessary, there is the beginners' subforum.

Actually there is no beginners subforum. There used to be but it ended up not working very well. It needed more experienced players in order to give advice that wasn't just beginner to beginner - which obviously has problems. Pluse we are trying to move away from the old model of lots of different subforums

to treat them asa bwginnerIt's also fair to say there isn;t a clear divide between beginner and non-beginner. If beginners want it known that they are a beginner, then they post in the general area but witha brefix so that hopefully, asa declared beginner, anyone answering know that. We also have a level indicator in members' profiles which show up on the posts where you can choosea more descriptive level

Concepts and techniques that are second nature to experienced players can seem overwhelming to a beginner.

I know exactly what you mean. I think. But sometimes there are questions which cannot be easily answered without at least alluding to topics that are more advanced. And sometimes oversim and that thoseplistic answers can actually be less than helpful in the long run. Maybe you are thinking about the discussion that went off into enharmonics?

When I was working as a lecturer I had to be very careful (in jazz and/or pop theory) I came across this problem a lot and often had to point out that there may be more to an answer than I could give to a class of beginners but those who were thirsty for the more involved or advanced answer were free were free to see me at personal tutorials. In this case I was faced by a class not of beginner musicians obviously as it was university level, but they were new to the theory. And the problem I had was compounded by the fact they had previously learned from a system that I eschew, i.e. the sort of Aebersold style chord/scale theory. That in itself is a great example of sometihng oversimplistic to appeal to beginners, but ultimately can be damaging.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Maybe we should consider a beginners only section with only certain vetted experienced members given access to help? @Pete Thomas

See above. I think it may not be practical to "vet " members. How would we do that? I would maybe rely on self declaration of competence. But again, I'm also wary of making the forum structure more complex. I will however put my thnking cap on, if I can remember where I left it.

 

[cappers]

But it'd be worth a discussion with some of the folks, cappers and others, that'v recently availed themselves of the collective wisdom

I'm happy with the way things are and am grateful for any advice given.
Just remember, what might be simple and basic for some might be new ground and confusing for others.
Cheers.

 

[Targa]

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[Pete Thomas]

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[Grumps]

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[PigSquealer]

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[mizmar]

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