Rhythm (lack of )

[jadoube]

Any advice on improving my sense of rhythm ? My teacher is tearing his hair out.

I'm usually OK when I'm comfortable with the fingerings of the notes. But when I'm hitting sequences of notes I'm not comfortable with my dotted note timing goes out the window. :x

I'm a complete beginner so not perfect at sight reading and the fingers are clumsy on the notes. Trying to count at the same time simply overloads the brain.

My wife (dance trained) says that I don't hear the beat in music (more often when learning steps to a new dance). She hears it instinctively and like my sax teacher can find no way of getting me to do the same.

Any help with my affliction greatly appreciated.

 

[spike]

have you tried the so called Kodaly method, (it's not strictly his method but) It consists of using syllables to denote the different note lengths. You should be able to find some info in the web.

As suggested elsewhere on this forum it's good just to concentrate on one aspect of reading at a time, - in your case rhythm.

A cheat that I use occasionally is to type the notes into a notation program and play them back over the computer.

Once you've learned to recognise some of the more basic paterns it will get easier with time.

I helped a student a few years ago with his rhythm by simply going for a walk and keeping up a regular pace, and then singing the particular rhythms he was having trouble with on top of the regular walking beat.

 

[philippe]

Basically make the metronome your new friend.

Here's an exercise that made a huge difference for me: I started carrying a metronome around, I would leave it on at 30bpm and I would listen to it and clap or snap my fingers to it and try to be as accurate as possible. You have to really listen and play the beat.
For me it really started slowing everything down... I started playing more accurately on fast tunes, I could hear changes better because I wasn't concentrating on the rythm so much, I got more in tune with the form of the piece...
After a while you can start playing all the subdivisions of a beat (there aren't that many), e.g. 1-2-3-4, then 1-rest-3-4, then 1-2-rest-4 etc., including triplets. That also improves your reading.

 

[bigtasty]

Here is a link to some info on the Kodaly method. It helped me get the count on 16ths. Click on rhythm syllables and then open diagram window...

http://www.kodaly.org.au/Teaching/Teach%20frames.htm

 

[jadoube]

Thanks everyone for the advice 🙂

 

[ken]

I'm terrible on notation, but not too bad on rhythm.

Something helped me a long time ago was to get a couple of camera film cassettes (the little plastic film roll cases). Put something in each that rattles, preferrably something different in each so that it is a slightly different sound/rattle. Shake one at a regular beat and slowly start to shake the other at double or quadruple the beat. This is a bit like patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time, but it really makes you concentrate on rhythm and even I got better very quickly.

Perhaps it's just me 😉

 

[Bobby G]

Ken, ever thought of taking up drums? (insert large smiley).

I guess I never had trouble with rhythm as I grew up in the 'beat' era (ask yer dad, young'uns!).

I've found a good way of playing rhythmically if, like me, you jam along to stuff to have fun and learn at the same time, is to stick on some reggae - not the really fast ska, something a bit slower and slightly more flowing. Being harmonically simpler it helps with staccato, phrasing, half/quarter/eighth etc notes, and melodic improvisation including passing and non-scale notes without having to concentrate on complex chord structures. All this from the perspective of a non-reading inveterate busker too.

 

[Pete Thomas]

A good thing would be to get your wife help you with analyzing what's going on. Bob's recommendation about reggae is a good one, but any type of simple rock or modern dance should do.

First identify the 1234 of a 4/4 drum rhythm, generally the accent is on 2 and 4. In a simple rock rhythm that's "Boom chick boom chick" (where the boom is bass drum and chick is snare drum. Once you can hear this then clap along. Try clapping with all beats (ie 1234) then bass drum on 1 and 3 and then the snare on 2 and 4. This last one is the best fro getting a feel of pop, rock and jazz. Once you are comfortable clapping on 2 and 4 (aka the "backbeat"), try tapping your foot on 1 and 3 at the same time. (You may want to try it wityhout the clap on the backbeat first)

Once you can do this keep doing it and listen to how regular and close to the beat you are doing it.

Once you have the hang of this start listening for the beats inbetween 123 and 4. In a rock rhythm there are usually two cymbal hits to each of the 4 beats in a bar. You think of this as 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and.

Once again, at first get your expert wife to identify a good couple of trcaks that are this simple. (Some styles e.g. funk and hip hop will often divide the beat into 4, so make sure you have something simpler at first).

Then get a cheap pair of bongos or congas and have some fun playing along to tracks, in no time you will feel the beat.

 

[ken]

At 12:54:19 PM 07/06/06, Bob Green wrote:
Ken, ever thought of taking up drums? (insert large smiley).

I guess I never had trouble with rhythm as I grew up in the 'beat' era (ask yer dad, young'uns!).

Hi Bob,

What's the 'beat era' dad???

For the drums I suggest rattley tin cans on your feet as well 🙂 . I only ever sat down at a drum kit once and concluded that I'm not in proper control of all my facilities. Getting two hands to work in unison is one thing, add the feet to the equasion and I become a gibbering wreck.

The film cassettes helped me a lot though with rhythm.

 

[Bobby G]

I can coordinate my fingers ok for playing sax or guitar, I can coordinate my hands and feet ok to play drumkit in a basic way. Why can't I coordinate my fingers to play hand drums like bongos?

Bongos were a big thing in the beat era, daddyo. I must've grown up in the Beat Boom....

Going back to my earlier post about reggae, one thing that makes me prefer it over rock or dance music is the really steady guitar/keyboard rhythm plus it's very 'organic' sounding with a lot of space in the arrangement which lends itself nicely to sax-playing. Sometimes there's a bit too much 'noise' i.e. loud guitar, in rock music for a sax to slot in, although I do play that way sometimes. Funk/dance is good too, oddly enough 70's disco is quite good in terms of sax-friendliness.

I must investigate Pete's rock'n'roll section, another feel again. Superficially quite simple, but with that almost swing feel to it rather than straight fours.

I think it was Keith Richards (how's the head, Keef?) who made a remark that the new bands knew how to rock, but they couldn't roll.... and it was Jah Wobble, bassist of mightiness, who pointed out that the most 'uplifting' or 'meaningful' music, that with the best 'feel', is broken up into 12's rather than 8's, whether as a 6/8 time or a 'tripleted 4/4' (hope you know what I mean, my lack of knowledge may not be putting this over too well) i.e. has a swing to it, with more inherent rhythmic freedom, than the straight 'rock' 4/4.

 

[ken]

At 5:15:22 PM 07/06/06, Bob Green wrote:
I can coordinate my fingers ok for playing sax or guitar, I can coordinate my hands and feet ok to play drumkit in a basic way. Why can't I coordinate my fingers to play hand drums like bongos?

My wife tells me that women are better at multi-tasking, she bears this out by spending on both my credit cards at once :cry:

A very simply little reggae number that bounces around quiet well on sax with a bit of impro is 'Buffalo Soldiers'... even I can do it if I'm smoking the right rope.

 

[mitaka]

Hi everyone
this kodaly method is quite good, thanks spike
it realy helped me with the 16ths as i was trying to find easier way to spell them (tried with one-a-and-a-two-a but got everithing smeared - I think its not suitable) Any suggestions about triplets (in 4/4 for now)?
I cant afford a teacher at the moment so everithing on this site is of great favor. Thanks everybody especially Pete - great job

 

[Dylan]

Rhythm is probably one of my weakest areas in playing, though it is definitely improving.

I remember one nightmarish situation playing tenor in a band rehearsing the fantastic Nat Adderley tune "Jive Samba". In the B section there is a note tied for 6 beats which we were playing pp, before things really kicked off with a flourish into the next bar. Guess who kept coming in early

On the up side. It's a fantastic feeling when you finally GET the rhythm of a piece you are having problems with. Then it feels impossible to get it wrong because it's seems so obvious...

Loads of advice in this thread to mull over as usual. Great stuff.

 

[oliver_bentley]

Been teaching a few kids recently and in true World Cup spirit we started to use football teams for rhythms while clapping

-Crotchet=France
-2 Quavers=England
-minim=Bra-Zil (zil being silent done with passing the hands to the side in stead of clapping)
- 4 quavers = Argentina

and for Mitaka "Any suggestions about triplets (in 4/4 for now)?" - we use It-al-y

This seemed to help a lot. For the older ones crotchets soon became "scum" and we used premiership teams for other rhythms

Theres something rather satisfying about teaching pupils to chant Man-U Man-U Scum Scum, Liv-er-pool Liv-er-pool Scum Scum. Maybe thats just me though:whistle:

 

[Rogerb]

Sorry,
I may be an old f@rt but I do find the use of 'scum' offensive in any context except, say, "The scum who killed Stephen Lawrence" (for non-Brits, a black lad stabbed in a racist attack several yrs ago, whose killers are known to many but have never been convicted 😡 )

You aren't scum just because you support a different team from me!

 

[jadoube]

I'm another old f@rt who disapproves.

Not getting at you Oliver, its a more general rant.

My daughter's form teacher plastered football posters around the classroom - to the effect that the only way to support team A is to hate team B's supporters. I have two, intelligent, work colleagues who support team A and they see nothing wrong in preaching hatred of other teams - "its how you're brought up in *********" .

Instead of football teams imagine using an ethnic or religious group, or some physical handicap, or the names of some of the kids in the class.

 

[oliver_bentley]

I'm not takin offence and I really understand the point - This was only used with the one or two kids mature enough and old enough to get we we're not being serious and at the very end of a long lesson - but thats kind of missing the point.

The last thing I want to do is cause offence, but if we can cominunicate with kids on thier level, and have a bit of a laugh then it makes music fun. They went from not being able to clap a rhythm written down, to being able to clap complex rhythms and then link this back to something familiar and easy to remember. I've used foods before as well as Simpson's names all sorts - was only being footbally for the moment (I'm a Hlaifax Town fan, and get few moments to be anywhere close to "footbally" 🙁)

The only reason I still play is beacuse when it was getting tough I had teachers who were a bit off the wall, fun to be with, and made music something I love - as we get older the discipline starts to kick in and the presure mounts, but if we dont enjoy it to start with we're just going to crumble. I still ensure my guys have new scales and exercises, reading, and theory is all very very important. But whats the use if they don't enjoy it?

If I can make these lessons something the kids wanna practice for and look forward to turning up to I'm a happy guy.

(and btw I'm perhaps the least racist person you'll ever meet! The killers of Stephen Lawrence and many more like them are indeed some scum we can agree on) 😡

Sorry for any offence caused, Oli