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Tone Relaxed Embouchure

L

lydian

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Instead of trying to control the whole weight of the entire horn with both hands to counter the force of your jaw try adjusting your strap then you won't be having to use your jaw.
You didn't understand my post. I said, "control", not support. Of course the neckstrap should take all the weight. But it doesn't "control" anything. If you don't use your head for that anchor point, your arms have to perform that task. Your jaw pushes up, gravity pushes down. You control the up forces, the universe controls the down. No teeth means you've given up half of your control. There's nothing else to steady the horn if you don't use the top of your mouth. It's all about balancing forces. And using your head is the simplest, easiest way.

I'd be interested in hearing your tone quality across the range of the horn using your no contact embouchure.
 
Y

Yansalis

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@turf3 Some Allard students told him in the early stages of learning that they had leaks in the corners of their mouths. He said this would take care of itself in time.

I understand that one has to budget how one literally spends one's time, but if you were to go down the Allard rabbit hole I think you would find it much subtler, somewhat more original, and more worthwhile than any of its opponents will ever let on.
 
Targa

Targa

Among the pigeons
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You didn't understand my post. I said, "control", not support. Of course the neckstrap should take all the weight. But it doesn't "control" anything. If you don't use your head for that anchor point, your arms have to perform that task. Your jaw pushes up, gravity pushes down. You control the up forces, the universe controls the down. No teeth means you've given up half of your control. There's nothing else to steady the horn if you don't use the top of your mouth. It's all about balancing forces. And using your head is the simplest, easiest way.

I'd be interested in hearing your tone quality across the range of the horn using your no contact embouchure.
As I don't use my jaw to push up, other than the few altissimo notes which I am still trying not to do, it would appear I have lost the other half of my control as well. Unless of course the universe feels up to the task when the face muscles start to tire.
Thank you for expressing your interest in hearing my tone quality however I will have to disappoint you as that will not happen.
 
L

lydian

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342
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USA
As I don't use my jaw to push up, other than the few altissimo notes which I am still trying not to do, it would appear I have lost the other half of my control as well. Unless of course the universe feels up to the task when the face muscles start to tire.
Thank you for expressing your interest in hearing my tone quality however I will have to disappoint you as that will not happen.
Since you can’t offer any evidence to support the advantages of your method, I’ll have to stick with mine.
 
Targa

Targa

Among the pigeons
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Since you can’t offer any evidence to support the advantages of your method, I’ll have to stick with mine.
I didn't claim there were 'advantages' to my method, I only said it is how I choose to play, what anyone else does is not my concern.
 
CliveMA

CliveMA

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Brisbane, QLD, Australia
I think the ear is the most important component of the embouchure - achieving automatic adjustment of the embouchure minutiae regulated by the sound we hear. The sooner a beginner starts using their ear the better.

For gross adjustments such as how far the mouthpiece is inserted in the mouth beginners tend to use absolute measures such as the line of their mouthpiece patch. Instead they should deliberately put the mouthiece in too far and listen, pull it out too far and listen, push in/ pull out incrementally until they hear their best sound. This starts to develop the habit of listening which should then be applied to other adjustments.

The obsession with embouchure minutiae should be discouraged in beginners. Many teachers overanalyse and over explain. Instead beginners need to use their ears and learn to trust their feelings.

IMHO!
 
jbtsax

jbtsax

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Beautiful Springville, Utah USA
I think the ear is the most important component of the embouchure - achieving automatic adjustment of the embouchure minutiae regulated by the sound we hear. The sooner a beginner starts using their ear the better.
The obsession with embouchure minutiae should be discouraged in beginners. Many teachers overanalyse and over explain. Instead beginners need to use their ears and learn to trust their feelings.

IMHO!
You make a very good point about learning to "listen and adjust". My experience from starting hundreds of beginning players on band instruments is that giving the students clear instructions on what works for most people at the very start of learning how to produce a tone is far more practical and effective in group instruction that telling them to just "experiment" and find what works or sounds best for them. It may be an effective approach in one on one private instruction where the teacher can focus on one student at a time, but in a class of 30 or 40 beginners it would be unmanageable. A good example of teaching tone production to beginning saxophone students can be found in this article by Bruce Pearson.

Once a student can produce and maintain a steady tone of a quality that enables them to tune the instrument, it is appropriate and expected that each will learn to listen and make the small adjustments based on their individual physiology that work the best for them.

On the topic of teachers over explaining, it reminded me of the time I asked a colleague who was one of the finest trumpet teachers in the state exactly what he tells his students about the embouchure, air, tonguing, etc. His reply was I used to go into all of that detail (minutiae) in private lessons, but over time I learned to talk less and just play my instrument and tell the student to make it sound like this. That made me a better teacher from that point on.
 
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