Recording equipment.

[ken]

Can anyone give any advice on what is required to set up a home recording system.

I know the obvious questions are what's the 'budget' and what's the 'use', so I would say to the first that I am looking to achieve "reasonable" results rather than being overly budget constrained and to the second, I want to record my own saxing plus small (5 piece) band work.

The first dilemma is analogue or digital (or mixed???), can I, should I, base this on PC system (PC not Mac). If computer based, what kind of software is involved.

Next is, what hardware will I need. My existing 4 channel pa/amp, will I think, get me going, but will I need a mixer to add more channels (especially mic'ing up a full drum kit). As for mic's, are dynamics good enough or are condensers a must.

One thing that really puzzles me, would I need any external effects modules, or can this be done in software (going the PC route).

Another thing, what are the implications/requirements (if any) of mixing my midi instruments with normal instruments. Do I end up with MIDI productions (files) or analogue/digital (CDA/MP3 etc)???!

Absolutely all and any advice appreciated, right from basics up, incl gear suggestions.

Thanks.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I would recommend recording digitally to your computer (though my recommendation would be for an Apple Mac - the new intel ones boot Windows as well)

On PC you would need software such as Cubase, Ableton Live, Sonar etc. (but I don't know much about PC software anymore)

These days the software and 3rd party plugins will do all the effects and mixing you need, a mixing desk is only really reqired these days for complex monitoring.

Your main bit of kit will be the interface. This is a box that has multiple analogue inputs (line and mic with preamps) and converts them to digital. Generally firewire, USB or connected to a PCI card.


There are many around, take a look at the Thomann catalogue but ideally find a good retailer who can explain the pros and cons.

Motu is one of the more highly recommended. For a 5 piece band you are going to need 8 inputs if you are recording all at once. A drumkit should have at least a stero pair (aka overheads), nice to have a mic on bass drum too or maybe snare also but that may be overkill for home use. For home use I wouldn't worry about a full set of drum mics, but if you want to do that you can get a good deal if by one of the drum mic sets. They do 3, 4 5 or 8 pice I think:

http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1772&brandID=2

You can get away with dynamics if they are reasonable (ie Shure SM58 or equivalent). Condensers are now very inexpensive - look at mics by SE Electronics, Samson and Oktava. Condensers will need phantom power, some interfaces have that some don't.

You will also need monitor speakers and amp. You can use your hifi, but dedicated studio monitors are better as they are designed for flat accurate respons and not to flatter the sound. You get better mixes if you do the work making it sound good rather than having speakers that enhance certain frequences. I like "active" monitors, ie each speaker has a built in amp so you know the speaker/amp is a good match.

I'd recommend you get hold of some back issues of Sound on Sound magazine, or browse the website. Loads of stuff there.

 

[ken]

Hi Pete,


I understand your Mac preference and if I were starting anew I might go that route. As it is, I'm too deeply entrenched with PC's to make the swap. However, I have a spare P4 H/T 3gig which I'm setting aside for this and hopefully it should cope, sans any dedicated Apple Mac s/ware unfortunately.
I've done a bit of internet research, so far I have managed to confuse myself more than enlighten. I will do more browsing on your suggestions, but can I ask/clarify;-

I see that Sonar is in the software list. I can't get my head around this, isn't Sonar the successor to Cakewalk and if so is it a MIDI application the same as Cakewalk (I have an old version of Cakewalk). Are the other software names MIDI orientated too. One of the things that I can't fathom is interaction (s/ware & h/ware?) in mixing A/D input, from say guitar/vocal, with MIDI signals such as keyboard/wind synth.

The 'interface you mention Pete, is this the same as an A/D (analogue/digital) converter, I guess so by your description. I can grasp that concept, but why, or what is the use, for some interfaces that also sport D/A conversion. Is this a kind of up-rated/better 'computer out' system than the soundcard.

Perhaps a silly question, but what is meant by 'overheads'. Is this just, as you mention, 'stereo' output.


I wouldn't use my hi-fi amp/speakers on any of this, my PA/keyboard amp has 4 'clean' channels at 120w with FX loops and DI out and also RCA in/out. I don't think I would want the entire ensemble pumping out of the one amp/speakers and take your point about monitors, but (just wondering) where would I pick up the input for the monitors, would it be another PC output device/card and could I retain channel/instrument separation prior to mix-down.


Any chance of a few pics of your set-up Pete or are you all studio based?

Thanks again... VERY much appreciated.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Ken wrote:
Hi Pete,


I understand your Mac preference and if I were starting anew I might go that route. As it is, I'm too deeply entrenched with PC's to make the swap. However, I have a spare P4 H/T 3gig which I'm setting aside for this and hopefully it should cope, sans any dedicated Apple Mac s/ware unfortunately.

You don't have to make the swap, new mac intel machines boot Windows XP as well.

I've done a bit of internet research, so far I have managed to confuse myself more than enlighten. I will do more browsing on your suggestions, but can I ask/clarify;-

I see that Sonar is in the software list. I can't get my head around this, isn't Sonar the successor to Cakewalk and if so is it a MIDI application the same as Cakewalk (I have an old version of Cakewalk).

Don't know about Sonar or cakewalk so can't help there.

Are the other software names MIDI orientated too.

I would be tempted to look at Ableton Live, although I'm not sure about it's MIDI capabilities

One of the things that I can't fathom is interaction (s/ware & h/ware?) in mixing A/D input, from say guitar/vocal, with MIDI signals such as keyboard/wind synth.

The recording software, which is a combination of MIDI sequencer/audio will play audio and also run the MIDI soundmodules. To mix the two you either need an outboard mixing desk, or stream the audio from the soundmodule/keyboard into the computer. This can either be live as the sequencer is running or you can record the audio from the MIDI sound module output onto the computer.

In my case I now use almost exclusivley virtual MIDI instruments that are part of my software (Logic Pro) instead of outboard MIDI modules.

The 'interface you mention Pete, is this the same as an A/D (analogue/digital) converter, I guess so by your description. I can grasp that concept, but why, or what is the use, for some interfaces that also sport D/A conversion. Is this a kind of up-rated/better 'computer out' system than the soundcard.

Exactly. You need at least stereo for monitoring. You wouldn't want to monitor from PC speakers, or the crap PC soundcard D/A into a nice studio monitor system.

Perhaps a silly question, but what is meant by 'overheads'. Is this just, as you mention, 'stereo' output.

Overheads means the mics are place over the top of the kit. Usually a stereo pair of mics.
Condensers will be better for really subtle transient stuff like acoustic guitars and cymbals. SM58 is not at all bad on saxophone and snare drum.

Going back to a mixer, I notice that most provide Phantom Power, would this put a mixer back on the list if I went condenser or is it always preferable to find an A/D interface with P.P. facility.

I prefer the PP to be in the interface, but partly because I like the lack of clutter in my studio now that there is no mixing desk.

Out of curiosity, what is the voltage/watts of P.P., will a standard PC PSU cope (assuming a PCI interface).

It's 48 volts. I assume PC will be fine. My interface is a Metric Halo Mio which runs via Firewire from my G5 and has no problem, but it can also run in powered from mains mode via a AC adapter, but I don't find it necessary.

I've also noticed that some mixers have effect built in, are these any better/worst than using s/ware effects, or is there any advantage in having both.

You get lots more versatility from software effects as you can get many 3rd party plugins which run alongside the software's own effects

I wouldn't use my hi-fi amp/speakers on any of this, my PA/keyboard amp has 4 'clean' channels at 120w with FX loops and DI out and also RCA in/out. I don't think I would want the entire ensemble pumping out of the one amp/speakers and take your point about monitors, but (just wondering) where would I pick up the input for the monitors,

This is what the D/A output of the interface is for.

would it be another PC output device/card and could I retain channel/instrument separation prior to mix-down.

Well I do all the mixing within the computer. If you want to mix outside the computer then you need enough outputs on your interface. many have 8 or 16. If you wanted more you just pair up interfaces, but I am much happier doing all the mixing in Logic, then just export to aiff, wav or mp3. With an expernal mixing desk you need to fart around with DAT recorders or (wait for it) Revoxes javascript:emoticon('%3E🙂')
No problemo

Any chance of a few pics of your set-up Pete or are you all studio based?

It's here:

http://www.petethomas.co.uk/music-software.html

 

[ken]

Hi Pete,

Thanks very much for all the info and for taking the time, much appreciated. Lots to digest and learn and to get me going.

Yep, I understood that Intel Mac's now boot Windows, what I meant was I couldn't justify buying Apple machines... I get into enough trouble with the missus already.

Sorry I hadn't found your studio link myself, but that looks like a very nice place to work. Do you still use the Farfisa!?. Looks like you also have/had a hardware solution from the bottom pic.

Thanks again.
Ken

PS: Most things I 'fart' around with end up on tape and I suppose it 'could' be done, but even I don't have enough flatulence to mix down on 1/4" 2 track... perhaps the final mix though. However, I believe a few of the 60's bands managed it... seen a few with Revox's on stage as backing machines!!!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Yes I still have a bit of outboard, but most of that stuff in the pictures is gone, though the studio manager takes up more room now of course.

In fact this is what i still have but I only use the top two, ie the MIO interface and a TLA valve compressor/micamp:

I still have the farfisa and it gets used occasionally

 

[h2so4]

I use linux because its a very very stable operating system and i know my recorded tracks are safe, but passed the computers operating system i have found the best way to go is computer based recording. I built my computer a while ago for that specific reason, i use the new amd dual 64bit processors with a nforce4 mother board a sound card capable of at least 64bit packing and unpacking abilities and four low z inputs, two 1/4 inch imputs, and four head phone outputs. The sound card is an M-Audio something or nother but you can find it at musicians friends web site. I use the recording programs called Acid Pro, and Sonar as well as the diffrent loop generating programs.

 

[number11]

My advice to you, man. Get Audacity.
It's free.
It's really easy to use.
You can import your midi files into a project and treat it as an individual track.
All kinds of cool gadgets to play with.
You can have a bajillion tracks. (I haven't reach a limit yet, I got to twenty once.)
You can export your project as mp3's or wma's
Though it's not perfect.
MY setup is that, a mic, and a pair of stereo headphones.
Works for what I need.

 

[night0wl]

I see that Sonar is in the software list. I can't get my head around this, isn't Sonar the successor to Cakewalk and if so is it a MIDI application the same as Cakewalk (I have an old version of Cakewalk). Are the other software names MIDI orientated too. One of the things that I can't fathom is interaction (s/ware & h/ware?) in mixing A/D input, from say guitar/vocal, with MIDI signals such as keyboard/wind synth.

I realise this is an old post but I have been using Sonar for years (currently Sonar 5) and can tell you it has the best of both worlds, midi and audio! I record songs for songwriters who only write lyrics and don't know anything about music. They sing the song to me and I work out the key and chord progression of the song, then find out what sound they are after.

In Sonar, I can then lay midi tracks of the instruments I can't physically play (Drums, fiddles, bagpipes, horns,etc). Once the midi tracks are done I create new audio channels and apply soundfonts to the respective midi channels then record them onto their own audio channel. For example, new audio channel 1 is assigned a drum kit sounfont and the midi drum channel is routed though audio channel 1.

Once the midi's are converted to audio, I can then apply any effects (reverb, compression, EQ, etc) and also record the bass, acoustic and electric guitars one at a time. This is where the interaction between A/D (guitar/vocal mixed with midi signals) happens. When the recording is done I mix it and give it to the client for approval.

Sonar really is a sweet app for recording and has plenty of plugins with a variety of effects. For an interface I am now using a Phonic Firewire 18 channel mixer that delivers 18 individual channels to Sonar on the PC. I recorded a friends band not too long ago, using 3 drum mics (kick, snare/hats & overhead) 2 vocal mics, 1 guitar mic and DI bass all running into the PC and recorded fine, not dropping out once. I highly recommend Sonar 5 ! 🙂

Cheers
Shane

 

[Rogerb]

number11 wrote:
My advice to you, man. Get Audacity.
It's free.
It's really easy to use.
You can import your midi files into a project and treat it as an individual track.
All kinds of cool gadgets to play with.
You can have a bajillion tracks. (I haven't reach a limit yet, I got to twenty once.)
You can export your project as mp3's or wma's
Though it's not perfect.
MY setup is that, a mic, and a pair of stereo headphones.
Works for what I need.

This is one of the few posts in this thread which don't cause my eyes to glaze-over...... I nearly understood most of the words :S

I want the simplest and cheapest possible way of making a basic recording.... just to hear more-or-less what I sound like to others!

For that I am not about to buy a Mac or a multi-K$ microphone....I have downloaded Audacity, and have some quite good headphones but haven't a clue where to go from here 🙁

Can I, for example, get a usable mic with a USB connection? At present my only sound inputs are my skype handset and my webcams built-in mic!

Thanks for any help

 

[Linky Lee]

I really like AKG C1000S microphones for acoustic instruments. They work well and you can do vocals with them too. They aren't hugely expensive, otherwise a Sure SM57, or 58 if you want something a bit more rugged for live use.


Audacity is great, I use it quite a lot too even though we have access to cubase etc. I use cubase for the Midi and then import to audacity for audio.

 

[Rogerb]

Thanks, Lee...I think 😉

Sorry, but there's still a bit too much technobabble in there, for me... I *think* my PC has 'firewire capability'.....whatever that is!

Have I gotta pay a hundred squid for a mic (AKG1000) ?
I see the Shure 57 is a bit less.

I've got decent headphones.

What else do I need?

Thnx

 

[philthd]

a mic is a real limiter on your sound

a great mic wont give you a great sound if the rest of your chain is bad, but a cheap mic will never give you a hi fi sound.


though ive got a couple of mics i bought from poundland a few years ago which ive used as backup with much better results than i had any right to expect