Playing the saxophone Playing 'in time'

[old git]

So what is being said that all those guys in New Orleans who started to play ex military instruments and probably wouldn't know a crotchet from a minim, on paper anyway, were rubbish. Because they were not learned, they should be struck from the record and not listened to? Those slaves and slave descendants who picked banjos and guitars, without formal musical education, should be dismissed out of hand? Their feeling regarding time was probably much in advance of ours but that doesn't matter or the fact that jazz and blues emanated from their endeavours, they were ignorant and untrained.

Wonder if the root of the problem lies in the education system. The Ancient Greeks learnt by listening and watching but the Nineteenth Century British Education acts were mainly aimed at producing compliant factory fodder clones. That attitude seems to have stuck.

Rant over.
Best regards, everyone.

 

[Semiquaver]

The thing I did in my early days of learning clarinet is to use an exam piece from the ABRSM syllabus . Then either find a friendly piano player who can accompany you or get the ABRSM CD. Some of the Gershwin stuff is good for this.

You will have to play in the correct time or you will end a bar too early or too late.

This I feel, is different than with a jazz vamping as the exam piece has backing that is easier to follow. As it is for music students the beat is bashed out in an obvious way.

 

[Semiquaver]

So what is being said that all those guys in New Orleans who started to play ex military instruments and probably wouldn't know a crotchet from a minim, on paper anyway, were rubbish. Because they were not learned, they should be struck from the record and not listened to? Those slaves and slave descendants who picked banjos and guitars, without formal musical education, should be dismissed out of hand? Their feeling regarding time was probably much in advance of ours but that doesn't matter or the fact that jazz and blues emanated from their endeavours, they were ignorant and untrained.

Wonder if the root of the problem lies in the education system. The Ancient Greeks learnt by listening and watching but the Nineteenth Century British Education acts were mainly aimed at producing compliant factory fodder clones. That attitude seems to have stuck.

Rant over.
Best regards, everyone.

When you listen to these old recordings, does your foot not tap 'four in the bar'???????

That is called timing, which is what we are discussing.

 

[Sloth]

I would say rhythm has as much to do with tension/release in music as tone does..

But making music is a personal thing, is your happy enough without a clicktrack/metronome then fair enough but you may be playing alone!

I personally am trying to do both as I learn.

 

[old git]

1) When you listen to these old recordings, does your foot not tap 'four in the bar'???????

2) That is called timing, which is what we are discussing.

Please forgive me for numbering your points but I'm not clever enough for multiple quotes.

1) No, frequently two, eight or even sixteen to the bar.

2) That is not called timing, it is simply beating time which I find easy. Timing is the infinitesimal lead or trail of the beat.

So far nobody has dismissed the need for a dictatorship for multi performer performance and can someone explain why they call it free jazz if it isn't free?

BTW I only use MIDI because that makes me the absolute monarch of the work. 🙂

 

[rhysonsax]

Rhys,
What is correct?
One must realise that musical notation, like English, is not an exact matter but full of nuance.

The readings of 'classical' pieces vary according to the conductor, as to speed, dynamics and phrasing, yet might vary day to day as their mood changes. One conductor was notorious for taking items at a faster pace during the second half of a concert so that he could get to the pub before it closed and I AM being serious.

Playing or singing group music is being subjected to a benevolent dictatorship but as the dictators vary as to THEIR interpretation, which one is correct?

"Mine." seems the only answers.

Apologies for being serious.

I agree with nearly everything you say - speed, dynamics and phrasing can all be altered in performance and great music can result.

One of the things that all sorts of good music has in common is a "pulse" or an even beat. The tempo could be faster than another performance, or it could even be getting faster/slower during a single performance, but the "pulse" gives listeners a framework and draws them into the music.

It's not about being "tutored" or about written-out music, the same holds true for folk music from lots of cultures. And this is different from the "swing feel", which can vary between performers and styles of music. The even pulse is needed for all types of music (as far as I know).

If you hear a performance where the interval between pulses is varying randomly, sometimes shorter and sometimes longer, it just sounds wrong and the music doesn't engage the listener.

What do you think ?

Rhys

 

[Semiquaver]

1) No, frequently two, eight or even sixteen to the bar.

In that case, you are a better man than I gunga din.

I am going home now.

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

 

[old git]

Rhys,

Listen to lieder, pibroch or and I've forgotten what they call it but what is really Portuguese Folk Blues and the basic beat is varied. It is one of the skills of the accompanist to stay with the singer. As far as I am aware pibroch pipers do it on their own, so it's just a matter of hoping your interpretation appeals to the judges.

Semiquaver,

You told a member of The Croydon and Sarf London Massive that they were wrong. Good job we were all in a good mood today. 🙂 BTW Stop knocking off work early or I'll never get an increase in my pension.

Half diminished,

Don't worry so much, is your daughter trained as a teacher?. Perfection never arrives, it is not possible as a human. Everyone, including the musicians you most admire get things wrong, so stop being your own worst enemy by being over critical. There is a possibility you could blow Bird, Trane or some still alive off the stage.

Edited to change teacher to daughter.

 

[Young Col]

You old stirrer, Bill! It's not, of course, as simple as you suggest. Some of the earliest jazz musicians were not technically that good and were mainly self taught or learnt from others. I have never thought Kid Ory as much of a player or for that matter George Lewis, who sometimes just went off key (though I love his music). But they were in the right place for the kind of music they made and who's to say what would have happened if they had been more formally trained. Bix Beiderbecke ultimately became a victim of his own great talent due to his introverted nature and an unwillingness to learn to read properly when it mattered. On the other hand many New Orleans musicians, particularly creoles, were highly trained, reading musicians (although I do sometimes wonder if all the reedmen who were apparently taught by Lorenzo Tio, really were so, how he had time to sleep let alone make records himself!).

It also depends what and where you want to play. The early Basie band was by all accounts terrific in the surroundings of the Cherry Blossom and Reno Clubs in KC, but they had mostly head arrangements. When they moved to New York it was a different game - Buck Clayton said they abused the show they played behind every night, until he - as a trained musician - got them up to speed with reading. But some of the band never went to New York - perhaps they realised what would happen and decided it wasn't for them.

And finally, these days when we have more knowledge and more choice, it is a matter of adult learning approaches and what fits. When I started alto I took a deliberately pragmatist/ activist approach (have a go and see if it works), whereas I am now moving into a more theorist/reflector style (understand the underlying theory and technique and work on it a bit), which is more naturally me. Sometime I will combine them.

That's enough. Is it time for cocoa?

Colin

 

[Pee Dee]

Seems my comments stirred up a bit of hornets nest on this thread.
Going to bed now, but I will be back tomorrow with my thoughts on some of the aforesaid.
Thanks OG for fighting my corner:welldone
For now I leave with a thought; what came first? Music, or the dots?;}

 

[old git]

The dots. Obviously.

 

[Pee Dee]

To the two gentlemen above. I would like to politely suggest you are talking rubbish.

I believe playing music is about connecting with others. It is the musician saying something and the receiver (listener) responding.

If you are going to hide yourself away from others because you find playing music properly too hard, you are missing a vital element in our craft.

And I am sorry but if you believe playing free jazz is the easy way out you are very much mistaken. Free jazz does not mean playing anything anyway you like.

Guys I know it is customary on this site to play nicely nicely but you need to rethink what you have said.

However polite you want to be, telling somebody they are talking rubbish just because they have a different viewpoint to your own indicates a very small mind.
I am not hiding from anyone, and I do not find playing music 'properly' too hard. And I have not said that I believe playing free jazz is an easy way out either. I have been to a free jazz session, and found it very enlightening, and despite the lack of dots, all players played together in harmony.
These comments are purely a figment of your own mind. So I would suggest, politely, that you think before making rash comments, otherwise some might think you are talking rubbish also.

 

[Pee Dee]

For pretty much any style of music it's necessary to be able to play it "right" (and know what's right) before you start varying deliberately from that.

Rhys

Point taken, i'll learn a piece note perfect first before embroidering it and see if it's easier.🙂

 

[Pee Dee]

What I have been doing is putting my own interpretation on pieces, rather than concentrating on proper technique to start with and playing correctly (actually quite important if you ever play with an ensemble - all playing the same note lengths, slurs etc..).

Colin

Hi YC
I have not played with an ensemble, but would a jazz ensemble not embroidure the music, so that added slurs etc would have to be agreed so that each player played in 'time'? Like a trad band for instance, the whole band is playing together, but not strictly the perfect tune. And not a score in sight. It still sounds great! 🙂

 

[Pee Dee]

I have never thought Kid Ory as much of a player or for that matter George Lewis, who sometimes just went off key (though I love his music).

Colin

Before I knew anything about music, or played any kind of instrument, except a military drum, I used to enjoy listening to George Lewis. So now I have a knowledge of music and keys, does that mean I won't enjoy him anymore. I'll have to get me old vinyl LP out again and have a listen. Did George play in any key? Do you have to play in a key? Isn't everything played in C, with flats and sharps added to suit? As usual man has to complicate everything, and turn it into a science, more jobs for the boys!;}

 

[Young Col]

Pete , I think the polyphony of a New Orleans style front line is a different thing to the discipline required in my example of the Basie Band and others I can mention; Lunceford is a supreme case in the swing era. In the trad (I hate that term!) case they're not playing the same thing although they have the same rhythm. In a bigger band playing passages together precision is more important - wrong note lengths and wrong slurs will sound sloppy. But isn't that one of the great things about jazz - you can have precision ensemble passages which are a framework and linking device for much looser flowing soloists (Lester Young floating over the Basie band or Paul Gonsalves up tempo with Ellington come to mind).
Colin

 

[Young Col]

I hope you still do enjoy George Lewis. I do and I hope my friends will after I've gone: Burgundy Street Blues is specified for my funeral!🙂

 

[Moz]

Never heard of Funghi Mama so looked it up for an MP3 play in Amazon...

...saw lot's of adverts for books on mushrooms and Mama Mia with or without Merryl Streep, plus a poster for a film called Bloody Mama starring Shelley Winters which shows her, fag in mouth, holding a machine gun!!!🙂)) . I'm going to bed now as I think I may already be having strange dreams.


Cheers

Moz

Well I've been working hard at my intonation, sight reading, jazz articulation, scales et al and am making some progress.

My 'grade 8 flute' of a daughter was up for the weekend and wants to hear me play something she knows. Well I have a book of TV tunes so I play the theme tune to Miss Marple. Not bad I thought. Apparently not!

"This note was a fraction too long, this too short, you were late there blah blah blah! In fact I think the only note on time was the first! Back to the drawing board!

Any way, got my own back - showed her Funghi Mama and asked her to play it. Sight reading not so good now eh.......

 

[old git]

I hope you still do enjoy George Lewis. I do and I hope my friends will after I've gone: Burgundy Street Blues is specified for my funeral!🙂

I'll take up the 'bone again Colin and reform the band.
Can you snuff next week as we don't want to over train?🙂

Guys,
I do like winding things up and really have no objection to Semiquaver suggesting I am talking "rubbish", however I hope he is aware that all Croydon and Sarf Lundun Massive members are issued with laser sighted Kalishnowhatsits. 🙂 Before that fate befalls him, would he care to take issue regarding what is so damagingly referred to as a 'dictatorship'.

Now lighten up Guys, or you are all on the Massive's hit list.

 

[Young Col]

Well sorry to disappoint Bill, but I'm not going to snuff it before Griff's concert next Saturday and lose my ticket money, plus the offer of you buying me coffee.

BTW, the dots only came first in half of Mr Morse's code. The dashes come first in the rest. The letters and numbers are in mirror pairs too (eg A= .- N= -.). And before anyone asks what that has to do with rhythm, Morse code is very rhythmic in it's own way, even in a musical sense - remember Barrington Phelong's haunting theme to the Morse detective series that is built on the rhythm of the word M-O-R-S-E in code.

Only slightly off topic I hope!
Colin