Pisoni pads not flat + chinese sax repadding

[Janosax]

Hi,

Just bought some Pisoni Deluxe and Pro pads from Thomann. They’re not flat, is this a common thing? Is it a problem?

One Pisoni Pro:

One Pisoni Deluxe:

I’ve used one for low EB, and air torch heat/hotglue/adjustments made it flat, perfect seal with no leaks.

Also, do you think it's worth it repadding a chinese sax? My almost 3 years old G4M tenor sax will need this soon I think. They don't sell this model anymore.

Cheers

 

[Stephen Howard]

Well, there's flat...and there's flat.

What's important is that the pad is flat across its surface. So, if you press the pad down gently onto a flat surface - does the face of the pad look flat? Cheap pads will often have an undulating surface, or visible lumps and bumps beneath the leather.
Ideally you'd like the pad to be wholly flat straight out of the bag, but that depends on how carefully the supplier stored and packed them - but if it bothers you, simply lay the pads out face up on a table, then put a large book over them...and a couple more for a little bit of weight. Leave them overnight, remove the books, leave them overnight again to settle.
I never bother to do this, because by the time you smear hot glue/shellac over the rear of the pad. they're going to warp somewhat anyway. All that matters is the face of the pad.

Worth repadding a G4M sax? Depends what the definition of worth is?
I don't much care for the new G4M horns...they've moved over to Selmer copies, and I don't think they're a patch on the playability of the old Yamaha/Yanagisawa copies.
I wouldn't put Pisoni Pros on it though - maybe go for the standard Mypads. It'll save a few quid, and the pads will be more accommodating of any anomalies in the toneholes.
But hey - a horn is a horn...and if you like it, it's a good horn.

 

[jbtsax]

I have found the Pisoni Pro Pads to be excellent, and quite consistant. If you do very much pad work I highly recommend these tools sold by Music Medic. They are helpful in both installing and leveling pads as well as "ironing" the leather once they are installed and seated.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Pad irons are excellent tools, but I would caution against using them to force a pad to seat (which a lot of beginners do). They'll do it, sure enough, but the seat will likely never hold.
I tend to use them cold, mostly, to 'coax' a pad into the cup and to gently manoeuvre it around. Perhaps the pad need a slight tilt to the front or rear, or maybe to one side...but every adjustment must be made with the lightest touch of the iron. As soon as you apply pressure to the pad, you'll be storing up problems over the next 24 hours.

They can be used hot - and in this role they're very much an iron. They'll shrink the leather and tighten it up....but if you get them too hot they'll sear it - and that can lead to some very nasty problems with the evenness of the pad.

 

[Janosax]

@Stephen Howard Thanks for all info. This is exactly what I've done with some books for a few hours with the pad I've used … But I had this feeling that hot glue has done most of the work here.

I like this horn, Yani copy (TS-100G older version). What I meant is that it could be faster to buy a new one, but they don't sell it anymore. It's a good horn, so I suppose I've already got the answer, I will certainly repad it.

I've searched for Mypads, in fact they cost the same as Pisoni Deluxe pads (not Pro):

Mypads

10% Discount available on these items If you spend £100 excluding VAT on any mix of products displaying this message you will receive 10% discount on those items. To see how much more you need to spend to get this discount, see 'Discounting Information' near the bottom of your shopping cart.

www.windplus.net

Pisoni Deluxe Sax Pad 40,0mm

Tampon pour saxophone Pisoni DS-120, En cuir brun spécial, Résonateur en métal, Diamètre: 40 mm, Épaisseur: 4,3 mm

www.thomann.de

A full set of pads should cost around 100/120 €. With Thomann, it's always possible to buy each pad X2 just in case of need, and get a refund on those not used.

@jbtsax Thanks for the info too, I have to find a cheap one.

Here are some low cost tools I've used to change some pads and do some maintenance:

Air torch, works really well:

Notail Pistolet à Air Chaud, Mini Pistolet à Air 300W Chaleur Outils pour DIY Craft en relief,Gaufrage Timbre, Feuille Thermique,emballage gaufré (noir):Amazon.fr:Bricolage

Amazon.fr Notail Pistolet à Air Chaud, Mini Pistolet à Air 300W Chaleur Outils pour DIY Craft en relief,Gaufrage Timbre, Feuille Thermique,emballage gaufré (noir)

www.amazon.fr

Hot glue gun:

TOPELEK Mini Pistolet à Colle Chaude 50 Bâtons, Pistolet Colle Chauffrage Rapide et Sûr pour Petits Bateaux Projets & Package Bricolage et Réparations Rapides dans Maison & Bureau【20 Watts, Noir】:Amazon.fr:Bricolage

Amazon.fr TOPELEK Mini Pistolet à Colle Chaude 50 Bâtons, Pistolet Colle Chauffrage Rapide et Sûr pour Petits Bateaux Projets & Package Bricolage et Réparations Rapides dans Maison & Bureau【20 Watts, Noir】

www.amazon.fr

Pipe cleaner for rods:

100 GERMANUS Cure Pipe Blanc, Paquet de 100 Pieces, Nettoyant Pipes Cleaners:Amazon.fr:Cuisine & Maison

Amazon.fr 100 GERMANUS Cure Pipe Blanc, Paquet de 100 Pieces, Nettoyant Pipes Cleaners

www.amazon.fr

Tri-flow lithium grease:

Tri-Flow TF23004 Clear Synthetic Grease - 3 oz. Tube by Tri-Flow:Amazon.fr:Auto et moto

Amazon.fr Tri-Flow TF23004 Clear Synthetic Grease - 3 oz. Tube by Tri-Flow

www.amazon.fr

And here are some Tools I've found but not bought yet:

To remove play in my B key rod:

ptl SERTI pinces Action parallèle 4 Hole MUSIQUE réparation SAXOPHONE BOIS PRESTIGE #031-21-20:Amazon.fr:Bricolage

Amazon.fr ptl SERTI pinces Action parallèle 4 Hole MUSIQUE réparation SAXOPHONE BOIS PRESTIGE #031-21-20

www.amazon.fr

For posts:

PTL ® Prestige Parallèle action Post Pince de fixation pour Saxophone Instruments de musique#06215 outils de réparation:Amazon.fr:Bricolage

Amazon.fr PTL ® Prestige Parallèle action Post Pince de fixation pour Saxophone Instruments de musique#06215 outils de réparation

www.amazon.fr

USB leak light, I use a powerful small hand torch light for now:

Homyl Fuite Détection Lumière Outil Tuyau Cable Lumière Saxophone Flûte Kit de Reparation:Amazon.fr:Instruments de musique

Amazon.fr Homyl Fuite Détection Lumière Outil Tuyau Cable Lumière Saxophone Flûte Kit de Reparation

www.amazon.fr

Pads Tools:

RiToEasysports Outil pour Pad de Son de Saxophone Réparation de Bois de Saxophone Matériel en Acier Inoxydable Sax Tenor Reed Tuning Pad de Son de Saxophone Outil de réparation de Vent de:Amazon.fr:Sports et Loisirs

Amazon.fr RiToEasysports Outil pour Pad de Son de Saxophone Réparation de Bois de Saxophone Matériel en Acier Inoxydable Sax Tenor Reed Tuning Pad de Son de Saxophone Outil de réparation de Vent de

www.amazon.fr

Yibuy Outil de réparation pour flûte de saxophone en métal 176 mm:Amazon.fr:Instruments de musique

Amazon.fr Yibuy Outil de réparation pour flûte de saxophone en métal 176 mm

www.amazon.fr

For measuring pads, this one has 0.01 mm precision:

Pied à Coulisse Numérique, Preciva Professionnel Caliper 150m, Précision Digital Outil Micromètre Vernier en Acier Inoxydable, mm/inch conversion, Résiste aux Eclaboussures (Écran normal):Amazon.fr

Amazon.fr Pied à Coulisse Numérique, Preciva Professionnel Caliper 150m, Précision Digital Outil Micromètre Vernier en Acier Inoxydable, mm/inch conversion, Résiste aux Eclaboussures (Écran normal)

www.amazon.fr

BTW, I have a feel that LH keys stack action is very slighty lower than RH keys stack, certainly around 1 mm average. Is it a big problem? The sax plays well in tune. If I lower RH keys height with their dedicated screws, I will have to do something with Bb key regulation, as there will be some play with Bb when playing middle C. LH keys stack is already at maximum height, that can't be changed without removing metal material on B key. So it has to be made on RH stack. G4M tenor sax has a pretty low action which I like a lot BTW.

 

[jbtsax]

Please excuse me if you already know this information, but the key heights of the stack keys vary automatically and are determined by their placement and the "mechanics" of the keys. To illustrate I have attached a pdf file showing Yamaha's recommended key heights for their saxophones.

My method of setting key heights is to set the opening of the F on the lower stack and that determines all of the other key heights when "lost motion" is removed including the upper stack through the relationship of the bis key to the lower stack. I know other techs may do it differently, but this is what I find works for me. In many cases I start with the Yamaha recommended opening and use that as a starting point and possibly go slightly higher or lower depending upon the saxophone.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I've searched for Mypads, in fact they cost the same as Pisoni Deluxe pads (not Pro):

A full set of pads should cost around 100/120 €. With Thomann, it's always possible to buy each pad X2 just in case of need, and get a refund on those not used.

If they're the same price, go for it. The refund on any you don't use is a good deal.

Tri-flow lithium grease:

Tri-Flow TF23004 Clear Synthetic Grease - 3 oz. Tube by Tri-Flow:Amazon.fr:Auto et moto

Amazon.fr Tri-Flow TF23004 Clear Synthetic Grease - 3 oz. Tube by Tri-Flow

www.amazon.fr

And here are some Tools I've found but not bought yet:

For measuring pads, this one has 0.01 mm precision:

Pied à Coulisse Numérique, Preciva Professionnel Caliper 150m, Précision Digital Outil Micromètre Vernier en Acier Inoxydable, mm/inch conversion, Résiste aux Eclaboussures (Écran normal):Amazon.fr

Amazon.fr Pied à Coulisse Numérique, Preciva Professionnel Caliper 150m, Précision Digital Outil Micromètre Vernier en Acier Inoxydable, mm/inch conversion, Résiste aux Eclaboussures (Écran normal)

www.amazon.fr

That grease is properly pricey - you'll be paying for qualities that your horn can never make use of.

A tub of High Tack silicone grease is less than three quid....and is probably enough to last half a lifetime:

BES.co.uk | Next Day Delivery On 15,000 + Plumbing Supplies

Lubricants & Grease / Silicone Grease - Order Gas and Plumbing Supplies online at BES.co.uk. Low Prices, Free Next Day Delivery Available, 15k Plus Products in stock P/N: 15793

www.bes.co.uk

Not much point going for high precision when measuring pads - it's always going to be rather approximate. I have a cheap digital caliper that cost £8 - and it's absolutely fine. I also have a very expensive one, but I wouldn't get it out of the drawer just to measure a pad or key cup.

I'd get a cheaper caliper, and spend the saving on making up a leaklight that uses G4 LED bulbs.

Making and using a leaklight

How to make and use a woodwind leaklight

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

 

[Janosax]

@jbtsax many thanks for that very useful information. That makes lot of sense, I was in doubt with this. Yamaha heights shows that left stack is higher than right one, which is pretty logical as LH cups are smaller than RH ones. So everything is ok with my G4M.

@Stephen Howard yes that grease is pricey but great quality and remove play in rods for many months (except in those very hot french temps, as I’ve just change the grease it needs to stabilize). I use it also for RC helis. Double use!! The digital caliper was at the end of the list by mistake, I already have it and also use it in professional use on the go, for my laptop/smartphones repairing business, works great. Double use too, and nice to measuring sax springs too. About G4M sax it’s a great one, and nice to have for my using (in saxophone mute with moisture or outside in hot or cold temps). It’s a nice backup horn, but also just a nice sax. I wanted to buy an intermediate sax, but will save for a professional one and do a G4M repadding instead. And I think it deserves it in fact.

 

[jbtsax]

@jbtsax many thanks for that very useful information. That makes lot of sense, I was in doubt with this. Yamaha heights shows that left stack is higher than right one, which is pretty logical as LH cups are smaller than RH ones. So everything is ok with my G4M.

Isn't it the other way around that the lower stack-RH is higher than the LH?

 

[Janosax]

Isn't it the other way around that the lower stack-RH is higher than the LH?

Yes of course, total inversion ... too late for edit, thanks