Teaching "Payam Method"

[LostCircuits]

Ah, go on 🙂

Ok, it's almost tomorrow...

My first experience with this kind of stuff was having a 6th grade math teacher, first name "Aurelius" with a mnemonic memory. You could ask him by the end of the class and he would recite every single conversation that happened during his class. Totally anal but a fantastic teacher. And every year he took heat for skewing the curve above average. But then, every year, the standardized test proved him right.

I guess I was lucky to have a few teachers like him in my life. On the other hand, handing in a paper and getting a C- based on the notion that the subject was too easy and therefore precluded any A or B grading... Well I was the one who distilled it down to an easy subject. F my teacher!

Then grade school including teaching medical school: "Your students cannot be better than average"
Corporate: Your team can't be so much better than the company average ... then *** is everybody trying to poach them? And we are getting the job done as opposed to ... take a mirror and take a good look

No, I am not bitter, because I was able to give them all a middle finger...

 

[mark_addy]

Ok, it's almost tomorrow...

My first experience with this kind of stuff was having a 6th grade math teacher, first name "Aurelius" with a mnemonic memory. You could ask him by the end of the class and he would recite every single conversation that happened during his class. Totally anal but a fantastic teacher. And every year he took heat for skewing the curve above average. But then, every year, the standardized test proved him right.

I guess I was lucky to have a few teachers like him in my life. On the other hand, handing in a paper and getting a C- based on the notion that the subject was too easy and therefore precluded any A or B grading... Well I was the one who distilled it down to an easy subject. F my teacher!

Then grade school including teaching medical school: "Your students cannot be better than average"
Corporate: Your team can't be so much better than the company average ... then *** is everybody trying to poach them? And we are getting the job done as opposed to ... take a mirror and take a good look

No, I am not bitter, because I was able to give them all a middle finger...

Ah, well-played.

I flounced, I am afraid. The system wore me down, and one day I just did a Reggie Perrin (OK, I only metaphorically faked my own death 🙂 ). I try to avoid bitterness too; mostly by occasional chats with ex-colleagues who are still 'in', which normally make me feel more OK about where I now am!

 

[Hoosierken]

That's nice but how does it translate to a classroom situation? Is there going to be a sudden surge in funding enough music teachers in this proposed curriculum to give every child access to the opportunity?

He demonstrates the possibilities but it sounds like there is a substantial component of supplemental theory as well as "just play what you like".

I'm all for it. Sign me up!

You know if classroom curriculum worked so well all students would succeed now wouldn't they? Besides, the students whose parents can afford Payam probably aren't going to a classroom.

 

[Hoosierken]

I like the idea of allowing the student to pick the material they wanna learn...that isn't all that revolutionary, really. If that keeps them engaged, great.

The teaching talent/challenge comes into play in 'how do I get the information of the more academic/fundamental necessities weaved in to this'

You have to wonder if the academic/fundamental necessities are really necessary.

 

[Hoosierken]

Me too. Partly because it’s what I’ve been doing all my life when giving lessons.

Yes it’s not revolutionary at all IMO but I imagine it is in very traditional institutions.

I worked in universities where they eschewed my style and liked to stick to the old school methods because it was the only way they could apply “objective” grades. This style of teaching has to have subjective evaluation within institutions and there is the problem when students, or more likely their parents, threaten litigation because they got a lower grade than they hoped for.

As modern humans, we like to measure things. Perhaps a system like kindergarten might be a better measure. Is the learner improving? I stunk at English and math in school but made it though trigonometry and statistic in college while so many dropped out to keep from flunking. I also discovered that a word processor is a great equalizer.

 

[Hoosierken]

Songs/tunes that a student knows, from listening while watching animated musical films, is just helping them find it on their instrument of choice.
If a six year old harmonica student, has memorized the lyrics/melody to a tune in C# Major, might be best to push in the slide, and tape it closed? 😜

So are you saying that memorization is bad?

 

[Hoosierken]

That is why there is ‘grade inflation’, schools and universities too scared to give realistic markings.
“Back when I was a lad (or kitten)” most ‘A’ level results would be B or C, quite acceptable for university entrance, anyone getting A’s was deemed Oxbridge material, now it appears a large proportion are given A’s or even A*.
The same with degrees, 2.2 was the most common achieved now it appears to be a first is expected and ‘with honours’ quite normal.

Perhaps they are not being measured with the same yardstick. I think that's what entrance exams are designed to even out. I was a C student in high school. When I decided to try to go to a local jr. college, I missed a perfect score on reading comprehension by only 1 point. Word processors had really improved my spelling and sentence structure but the test still indicated that I needed to start in pre algebra. As for grade inflation, I passed trigonometry with a B, in large part because I really could do polynomials but understood very little of the rest of it. That and and by the final exam, half the class had dropped out. About the same thing years later in statistics at IU. I figured that I had bombed the final but ended up with a B. Guess what, when half of your class drops out it really helps the grade of those who are left. Not exactly survival of the fittest but at least the survival of the good enough. I reckon that's how Haymitch won in the Hunger Games.

 

[Hoosierken]

In the ‘60’s at a young age I was very interested in learning about music. Drums then trumpet. The teacher was brutal. Yeah, one.
John Mangles. Grade school to 9th grade.
The public school system. I lost my interest but followed others whom continued on. One trumpet player has continued to this day. I envy him.
If I only had an instructor who understood my needs…..how I could have learned to play music. My life would have been different.
I distinctly remember being beat to a pulp about time keeping and playing in tune. None I remember being taught from lessons. Like I should have had previous lessons. WTH !
Just the know notes to be played….by reading music. How was I to learn reading?

Add…that I had an old trumpet. For drums attempt…I had a wooden block with rubber top, sticks unfit for learning. The trumpet was my father’s from 1943. The drum pad my father made in 1950’s for my brother to learn.
Regardless of tools on hand. I still had a musical interest.
Educators of the times failed me.
Still many years on, I try to play and learn.

DON’T GIVE UP !!

I remember back in the 70s, joining the grade school band. My parents chose the trumpet for be because they already owned one. I remember being forced to practice pieces of songs, I guess the trumpet part that without the other instruments makes no sense. Now I am pretty sure that a lot of students brains just fill in the other instruments but mine couldn't. I dropped out at the start of jr. high because we had to come to marching practice at the high school in the summer that was 10 miles away and I didn't have a way there. I had also started guitar lessons at some point but what kid wants to go to a guitar lesson in the summer when all of the their friends are playing outside? Not to mention that my mom bought me the worst acoustic guitar to be found. It wasn't until after high school that I learned to play the guitar at all.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

So are you saying that memorization is bad?

Curious as to how you arrived
with that question. 🧐

 

[Hoosierken]

Curious as to how you arrived
with that question. 🧐

"Songs/tunes that a student knows, from listening while watching animated musical films, is just helping them find it on their instrument of choice.
If a six year old harmonica student, has memorized the lyrics/melody to a tune in C# Major, might be best to push in the slide, and tape it closed?"
Sounds to me like you are against a student playing songs that they have memorized. For me it is much easier to learn a tune that I am very familiar with. I think that the second part of your post is meaning that a student should be able to play a tune in multiple keys.

 

[Pete Thomas]

When I taught occasionally I espoused the pay ‘im method.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

When I taught occasionally I espoused the pay ‘im method.

A check or cash, for the month. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"Songs/tunes that a student knows, from listening while watching animated musical films, is just helping them find it on their instrument of choice.
If a six year old harmonica student, has memorized the lyrics/melody to a tune in C# Major, might be best to push in the slide, and tape it closed?"
Sounds to me like you are against a student playing songs that they have memorized. For me it is much easier to learn a tune that I am very familiar with. I think that the second part of your post is meaning that a student should be able to play a tune in multiple keys.

Exactly the opposite of what you're thinking, that I stated.
Tunes they already know, is just helping them find it on any instrument,
even Oboe. 😜

I always told new students to bring a list of 20 tunes, they want to learn, to their first lesson.
Easy to get them going on woodwinds, and for guitars, arranging skills, for any teacher, keeps the $$$$ flowing.
Strumming and singing is great.
Solo guitar, made easy, with lotsa open strings.
Nine Nuns, playing Silent Night, after just a couple of lessons, they made me an honorary Sister.
Long John Sister. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶

 

[JayeNM]

You have to wonder if the academic/fundamental necessities are really necessary.

The ultimate question when it comes to Arts education, and it has been debated for generations.

The form, genre, or 'movement' comes into existence, usually with an 'organic' or non-linear aspect to it...then when it has become something which needs to be taught, en masse, academia comes up with some 'methodology' for doing that.

Curriculum...rules....laws...etc. So the debate is borne as to whether learning the academic paths result in mastering the art form...or, during the process, does it alienate some who possess the 'gift' ? And end up 'stifling' the creative voice of some of those who make it thru ?

 

[PigSquealer]

@Hoosierken , I watched the 60 minutes program again. I fully agree. A modern approach to learning with an intended result should be well received and respected. Cultivating musical interest and achievement playing, this learning “Payam” system achieves this task. Without a way to attract entry level talent or students the art/craft will die.
Refining to the purest form, origins or alternative levels should be studies beyond basic training. IE continuing education of the individual original artist.
As such, we hopefully can attend a modern event to enjoy the current artist example of the works.
1650 or 2026 ?
What matters is the paying patrons left the event with the joy of being entertained. All at a good value.
The musicians left the stage with a paycheck and the interest to return.

 

[Hoosierken]

@Hoosierken , I watched the 60 minutes program again. I fully agree. A modern approach to learning with an intended result should be well received and respected. Cultivating musical interest and achievement playing, this learning “Payam” system achieves this task. Without a way to attract entry level talent or students the art/craft will die.
Refining to the purest form, origins or alternative levels should be studies beyond basic training. IE continuing education of the individual original artist.
As such, we hopefully can attend a modern event to enjoy the current artist example of the works.
1650 or 2026 ?
What matters is the paying patrons left the event with the joy of being entertained. All at a good value.
The musicians left the stage with a paycheck and the interest to return.

You know that I believe that there is some innate talent involved in learning. One person might be more talented in math, another in mechanics or engineering, some in music, some in driving or fighting. Everyone can improve and enjoy a behavior but not everyone can be a prodigy at everything. I think that what is important is enjoyment, that acts as a reinforcer that makes a behavior more likely to be repeated (i.e. practice). Practice can result in becoming more proficient at the behavior which should result in more time spent engaging in that behavior. If something is not pleasurable, then it acts as a deterrent to the behavior, a positive reinforcer to avoid that behavior. A paycheck is positive reinforcement to continue to engage in a behavior but the audience booing is a positive reinforcer to discontinue the behavior. (i.e. Huey Lewis opening for the Doobie Brothers, fortunately he persevered).
Where I am going with this is that if behavior that they are engaging in as a pleasurable reinforcer then they are more likely to continue that behavior. If they do not then they are more likely to reduce or eliminate the time that they spend engaging in that behavior.
I am glad for the musicians that left the stage with a paycheck and an interest to return. That means that they received a positive reinforcer that makes their behavior more likely to be continued.