Saxophones New tenor VS used "vintage"

[Al Ex]

Hi!

Having started sax on alto one year ago, I will hopefully soon be able to buy a tenor. My alto is a YAS 280 and I'm happy with it (well, I was quite happy too when I tried a friend's Selmer SA80 but that's another story), so I was thinking about getting a new YTS 280, having always be a little reluctant about buying used gear.

Still, I discovered recently that a little shop in my area was selling used and often more or less vintage saxophones. Among the instruments he currently has in store, there's an old stencil made for a french company in the 70's, built in Germany at the time (by Weltklang if I'm not mistaken). I've read about the instrument, which seems to play well. They say it has a bump that could not be properly repaired but which has no impact on the sound, and that it has to clean soldering marks which seem to have been made by a pro a long time ago.

A new YTS 280, marketed as a "student" instrument costs around 1500€, while the tenor in my example is sold 700€. What do you think about it: is it "safer" to go for a brand new (or let's say a recent used one) "student" model, or is it worth trying a "hell this one looks like it's been through three world wars but still sounds good" one? I mean, some brands like Selmer have such a reputation that no one will doubt about the playability of a 50 years old instrument, but can old stencil be as reliable, despite being much less notorious?

 

[Colin the Bear]

A weltklang is not in the same league as a modern yamaha. The Weltklang will maybe play nice but the action will be more agricultural imo and less ergonomic.

The Yamaha is the Lamborghini to the weltklang's Massey Ferguson.

The student label is meaningless imo. A new Yam will last you a lifetime. An old weltklang is a constant running repair job

 

[Al Ex]

Thanks for the input Colin, that's exactly what I was afraid of!

 

[Ivan]

The Yamaha is the Lamborghini to the weltklang's Massey Ferguson

Poetry

 

[Reed Warbler]

I've owned one new sax and a few older ones. My favourites are a King Cleveland tenor and a Martin Commitee III, both from around 1960. The King cost €700, the Martin €1300. I've spent about €200 on each though they were both very playable when bought. I have tried new Yamahas and didn't think they sounded nearly as good as my relics though they felt slick. The new sax, a Jericho soprano, was amazingly good value, about €300, but did have a roller drop off and disappear. It hardly affected the playability but I sold it anyway having decided to concentrate on tenor and bari. The music professor who bought it has worked as a demonstrator for Yamaha. He plays Selmers, mostly new but his tenor is a Selmer 26, probably eighty years old. He prefers the sound to newer models.
As with cars, buying second hand can save you lots of money, particularly if the cosmetics aren't great. For me, the important factor is how it performs, not what it looks like. If you find a second hand sax you like, get an experienced player to look at it for you to be sure it's not a dud. Spend the cash difference on a really good mouth piece. Just my opinion, best of luck!

 

[jonf]

Unless it's a particularly special example, 700€ is a ridiculous amount for a Weltklang. In decent playing condition here they go for about £150, needing work about £100.

 

[nigeld]

If you are willing to get a used instrument, then a used Yamaha would probably be a better buy than a Weltklang. For example a YTS-32.

 

[thomsax]

I think Yamaha student saxes are good. If you 're playing much maybe you should go for a YTS 32, 62 or 61. I'm searching for a good YTS 61 myself. IMO less "bright" compared to the 32 or 62 models. I played a YTS 25 but I sold it. I was often at the tech for service. So now I'm back on a nearly 80 years old Martin HC or a 58 years old "The Martin Magna Tenor". Very good saxes but the ergonomics ...... !!!!!!!! I bought my Magna in -84 and send it to a tech for new pads and and set up. The HC I bought "ready-to-play" in 95. No visit at the tech!!! There is a built in quality on these old saxes that you can't find on new saxes. A modern sax is better if you play for serveral hours every day.

 

[SaxoFREAK]

I have spent 45mins on the net and to be honest I think the sax you are thinking of buying is vastly over priced, I think £200-£300 is a more realistic price, there are quite a few about at roundabout this range, I would buy new if you can afford it, although not the same, I collect and use vintage cameras, I love the workmanship, the quirkiness, the feel and smell but they are not as good as modern ones, this more or less applies to many things, it will cost you more in the end!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Oh! Have a look in the yard sale here. Some members buy, do up, put on a stand and admire a vast array of different saxes. Then they either see something special or hit a financial bump in the road and sell them off. Quality bargains.

And just to add don't even consider buying a selmer from china.

 

[nigeld]

What do you think about it: is it "safer" to go for a brand new (or let's say a recent used one) "student" model, or is it worth trying a "hell this one looks like it's been through three world wars but still sounds good" one? I mean, some brands like Selmer have such a reputation that no one will doubt about the playability of a 50 years old instrument, but can old stencil be as reliable, despite being much less notorious?

As far as I can tell, the Japanese instruments (Yamaha and Yanagisawa) were so well made that old ones are fine. Some people say that the old Yamahas were better made than the new ones. The same applies to the classic vintage American saxophones (e.g. Martin, Buescher, Conn) unless the instrument has wear, but the ergonomics are not nearly as good as a Yamaha or Yani. A second-hand Weltklang may also be as good as it was when new, but the trouble is that it wasn't particularly good when new. (Though a lady in our big band makes a very nice sound on her Welltklang stencil tenor.) Of course any second-hand sax may need some work done. This can get expensive if there is a lot to be done.

 

[jonf]

All that @nigeld says above is spot on. Weltklangs actually make a pretty good sound, particulalrly with a bright mouthpiece as a rock n roll blaster, but they're crude, and not very valuable. If you have big strong hands they're OK (I actually have one at the moment), but I am a very forceful player......

 

[Al Ex]

Oh! Have a look in the yard sale here. Some members buy, do up, put on a stand and admire a vast array of different saxes. Then they either see something special or hit a financial bump in the road and sell them off. Quality bargains.

And just to add don't even consider buying a selmer from china.

I’ve seen a Yana T500 in the yard sale and it looks nice, but it would be quite a trip for giving it a try!!! However, if someone in France has a nice tenor for sale, I’ll check it!

 

[MMM]

Another consideration is how in tune can the instrument play without having to change your mouthpiece/embochure: I bet the Yamaha will be a lot easier to play in that respect. A big consideration especially if you plan on playing with other people.
M.

 

[superpapaben]

I think you should look around for a used YTS 280. As mentioned above, if you have the budget of €1500 then I agree that you should look for a used YTS 62 or maybe also consider a used Yanagisawa. You should find a T901 for that price of cheaper.

 

[thomsax]

All that @nigeld says above is spot on. Weltklangs actually make a pretty good sound, particulalrly with a bright mouthpiece as a rock n roll blaster, but they're crude, and not very valuable. If you have big strong hands they're OK (I actually have one at the moment), but I am a very forceful player......

Yes, and you should consider that Weltkllang saxes were a sax for less money when it was sold new. A new B&S Blue Label (a better construction than a Weltklang) back in late 70's was c 2000 s e k. Today the ask around 6-7000 s e k for a used B&S! A used SML Rec D that needed a complete mechanical restoration went for 17000.00 s e k! I help a player to buy "new" horn. He bought a King Super 20 tenor for 23000.00 s e k that also was ready for a complete mechanical restoration (the silver neck was bad, lots of dents on the body .....). We tried a mint Keilwerth SX90R with silver neck that they asked 24000.00 s e k for. A much better sax than the S20. Why are players buying used horns for lots of money? They must spend another 10.000-12.000 s e k for a complete mechanical restoration. B&S Blue Label, SML Rev D and S20 .... the impact of inteenet?

 

[Jazzaferri]

Almost vintage horns LOL usually with good intonation and responsive keywork

80's YTS 23 or if you have the bucks a purple logo 62