Saxophones Low Bb vs low A baritones.

[JayeNM]

When an extra tone is added to a sax they use to say that the overtones changes? A player studied classic saxophone at Berklee and bought a low A alto. The first comment his teacher gave him. "-You got different overtones in that alto". Is it the same with a bari to low A? I don't know I just play low Bb bari as loud as I can 😉.

lol....So the question there becomes...again, keeping the variables narrow...take a VI standard keyed alto playtested next to a VI low A alto...them being roughly of the same fabrication period, let's say +/- 7 years....

.....would actually sound somewhat different, tonality wise ?

Because your story doesn't specify whether the student's prior Alto was the same make/model alto, just conventional keying to low Bb....

 

[JayeNM]

Bass & Bari observations from here as a mechanic, Redneck engineer, and terrible player.
1) There’s limits to mechanical machines and the metals used. Here, usually brass or (?) nickel alloys for keywork.
Materials have limits to mass size. IE flex as an example.
2) A bass is freeking huge !
3) The market. What, one a year ? Two ?? Even at top premium prices will any company spend R & D dollars for a loss on investment ?l
4) Makers aren’t uninformed idiots. They follow / track trends in music. All genres. All economies and market accordingly….for profit.
5) Anything can be made to order. Especially when a non refundable deposit is made in advance.

Your first two points I echo. Having worked on a few....the sheer proportions and SCALE of a Bass are such that I too have always had the impression that this is as FAR (large) as one can go on a sax which is using brass keywork. Leverages and precision of things sealing as they should....

 

[JayeNM]

I stated these were not my words but those posted on - Brands and Horns | JazzBariSax.com
I guess you could reach out and ask him?

From what I have been reading on line they made the Low A bell as it is because of ergonomic restraints. The bell would be huge if correct. So it does expand as it goes up but not to the degree it should. It is a mathematical equation that could not be physically met.

Hmmmm....ok, on many modern low A's indeed the pad sizes are the same for the three bellkey pads. But, if memory serves, some vintage models do not have that attribute.

 

[JayeNM]

What I think I remember about the Mark 6 low A was that it had an arm that arched over a bunch of other rods, making the whole thing extremely flexible.

Is it a realistic expectation that the thumb key should close all 3 bell keys accurately? I THINK that if I were to take up the low A baritone, I'd probably finger a low Bb and just add the thumb key. Is this a realistic fingering approach?

For modern low A's...it IS a player expectation that the trigger should solely pop out the low A. Whether this 'closes all 3 pads accurately' is not really the question to a PLAYER.

Thus my prior comment,... on a LOTTA LOW A's, even modern ones....techs may NOT be able to get the low A mech as designed to DO THAT (while on some, we can)....so we are left with (usually) getting the A pad to seal decently and minimizing the leak in a B or Bb pad/key so as not to have that location undermine the stability of the A note. It can get there, but it can become a sorta frustrating give-take to regulate...

 

[turf3]

Hmmmm....ok, on many modern low A's indeed the pad sizes are the same for the three bellkey pads. But, if memory serves, some vintage models do not have that attribute.

Well, the size of the tone holes can be varied independently of the bore diameter. The statement to which I object is the claim that some or all of the low A bell isn't conical which (excepting of course Conn and Buescher) can be disproven upon visual inspection.

As to why the terminal flare is smaller on the low A, the claim of overwhelming size can't be correct. The diameter from which it would start is only something like 3/8" larger on the low A bell. That's the point immediately after the last tonehole. So a low A bell with a proportionate terminal bell flare would be about 3/8" bigger, not a huge amount. I have no good theory why the terminal flare on the low A is smaller. If there's a functional reason I'd bet on balance, that having the outward bend of the Bb style bell that much higher does funky things to balance, but I admit it's not a great theory.

As to "overtones", it is true that the tone hole lattice below the last open tone hole is known to have an acoustic effect; the flared bell on saxophone and clarinet is intended to compensate for its lack on the lowest note. But I rather question whether that has any effect above the lowest notes. Play a G on your sax and then close low C. Not much effect.

 

[Stocker]

Cool so literally paper hardcopy issues ? anybody ever put images on the www ?

Someone else did post some small excerpts on another forum, but since the books are presumably still under copyright, I don't think anything more has been.

 

[Dr G]

Well, the size of the tone holes can be varied independently of the bore diameter. The statement to which I object is the claim that some or all of the low A bell isn't conical which (excepting of course Conn and Buescher) can be disproven upon visual inspection.

As to why the terminal flare is smaller on the low A, the claim of overwhelming size can't be correct. The diameter from which it would start is only something like 3/8" larger on the low A bell. That's the point immediately after the last tonehole. So a low A bell with a proportionate terminal bell flare would be about 3/8" bigger, not a huge amount. I have no good theory why the terminal flare on the low A is smaller. If there's a functional reason I'd bet on balance, that having the outward bend of the Bb style bell that much higher does funky things to balance, but I admit it's not a great theory.

I wonder if it was done with consideration of case dimensions? As we can witness in the case of Buescher tenor terminal flare effects, a smaller bell flare is not necessarily a detrimental change.