Playing the saxophone Looking for tips on Overtone practice

[pablop]

I am finally getting back to playing and my first goal is to develop a round and robust tone to play Blues/Rock and Standards.
My ideal jazz tone is what I hear when Pharoah Sanders plays Africa, A Love Supreme, Love is Everywhere.
On Blues/Rock I am partial to Bobby Keys, Lee Allen.

I have been practicing some overtone excercises I got from a sax teacher way back, and I got myself a copy of Top Tones book.
I am struggling getting 2nd overtones past low Eb on ascending, E and F sometimes ring but not consistently.
Any tips on how to work my embochure/throat to get those and more?

 

[mizmar]

My 2¢: my go-to for hard to reach notes is a tone generator. My tuner app (TE Tuner) can play any note you want. I get the tone in the ear and then, kind of reach for it - preferably without conscious, substantial changes to embouchure.
That and lots of practice!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Any tips on how to work my embochure/throat to get those and more?

Mouthpiece exercises are very good for this. To bring up a point raised in another thread recently, try taking in less mouthpiece. And obviously working on breath support is as important as embouchure, I almost think of them as the same thing, or at least 100% connected

 

[pablop]

My 2¢: my go-to for hard to reach notes is a tone generator. My tuner app (TE Tuner) can play any note you want. I get the tone in the ear and then, kind of reach for it - preferably without conscious, substantial changes to embouchure.
That and lots of practice!

hi Mizmar, my issue is not that I do not know the note I want to hit but that I cannot get the horn to speak it.
The second overtone while fingering low E is a high B, fifth above the octave. While I can sound those second overtones fom low Bb to D# moving up to E and F is a hit or miss with a majority of miss...I have worked up to "hear the note in my mind" and keep my embochure relaxed and open as with the lower ones.
I have also noticed some reeds allow it to happen more often than others.

 

[pablop]

Mouthpiece exercises are very good for this. To bring up a point raised in another thread recently, try taking in less mouthpiece. And obviously working on breath support is as important as embouchure, I almost think of them as the same thing, or at least 100% connected

Thanks @Pete Thomas , I will try the less mouthpiece tip and see if it helps.
I do notice some reeds allow the notes to speak more than others,...I do try to make all reeds work for me by doing some shaving/filing on the ones that prove hard at the beginning.

 

[wakyct]

I think it just takes time. I've been practicing overtones for over a year and there are many weeks where I feel like I'm not progressing at all. But if I look back six months or a year I realize I've come a long way.

My advice would be to not get stuck in one exercise but get a few and rotate through them. For example right now I am working on slurring down overtones from this article, Joe Allard Overtone Exercise for Saxophone

Personally I haven't noticed much of a difference between harder and softer reeds, I rotate eight reeds anywhere from a two to a 2 and 1/2 vandoren traditional. So maybe it's just not that big of a sample size. But I suspect voicing has a much bigger impact than the reed

 

[Zasterz]

I’ve been getting to the 7th overtone (Bb 4) reliably since just a few months into picking up sax. I’m guessing this had mostly to do with my having thoroughly understood/internalized the concept of voicing from being a long time vocalist/voice teacher.

I don’t use a hard setup. I can do it on a soft reed (2 or 2.5 on a Meyer 5). I also got a lot from the sirvalorsax videos on YouTube where he demonstrates overtones and altissimo using soft setups with a lip rolled out embouchure. Another tip is to not try to do it too loudly. I was also starting my practice sessions with playing a descending octave on mouthpiece alone. (No longer need to do that.)

One thing that seems to carry over from voice— the most common mistake a student makes trying to get into their upper voice (notes above the “break”) is they try to push the chest voice higher, like “yelling” at higher and higher pitches. It doesn’t work and introduces frustration, what vocal study calls a “constriction” (basically the body refusing with accompanying tension.)

Rather, getting the top of the voice to sound requires a “letting go” of heaviness and doing something more like imitating a mouse squeak or whistle. Usually when you demonstrate that to a student they can quickly imitate it and make the high pitch they couldn’t do before due to the prior incorrect concept. That’s “voicing.”

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don’t use a hard setup. I can do it on a soft reed (2 or 2.5 on a Meyer 5).

I agree, there really should be no need to use a hard reed in order to get overtones. Obviously it may be easier, but is not the solution IMO.

 

[Zasterz]

I agree, there really should be no need to use a hard reed in order to get overtones. Obviously it may be easier, but is not the solution IMO.

Do you think it’s easier because maybe it lets you get away with “forcing” it out, possibly biting, thereby being actually counterproductive?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Do you think it’s easier because maybe it lets you get away with “forcing” it out, possibly biting, thereby being actually counterproductive?

Yes, that could be it.

 

[Dr G]

Mouthpiece exercises are very good for this. To bring up a point raised in another thread recently, try taking in less mouthpiece. And obviously working on breath support is as important as embouchure, I almost think of them as the same thing, or at least 100% connected.

By all means, if you are using too much mouthpiece, then take in less. If using too little, then take in more. If your horn sounds great, then enjoy the day.

 

[Pete Thomas]

By all means, if you are using too much mouthpiece, then take in less. If using too little, then take in more. If your horn sounds great, then enjoy the day.

That would be my general go to advice, but I have found taking in more mouthpiece makes overtones harder. So it seems to me that taking in less (although it may not be a complete solution) would be among the first things to try.

 

[pablop]

thank you all, @Zasterz great info, very helpful. Trying to not push harder with air column while going up helps 100%, tried it and works.
@Pete Thomas , taking in a smidge less MP helps too, my E 2nd overtone is getting there, will keep at it and try and conquer F

@Dr G horn does sound great, it's me who sometimes don't...but most of the time I do, now back to practice