Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[aldevis]

Getting rid of conscious thought processes is not specific to playing by ear

This should be the ultimate goal. We should think of music, not of the right dots.
The more experienced we get in reading, the bigger the chunk that we can play without processing it note by note.
I some lucky nights it happens first sight reading (Nestico charts), some other times the brain hurts just to squeeze right notes in the performances (Thad Jones)

 

[Targa]

You remembered I'm a 'Ovaltinee' 😉

I prefer Horlicks, I hope I've spelt that right.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Hmmmm.....it seems to me we need to arrive at consensus of what ear playing is.

I understand playing by ear to be the ability to hear musical phrase and play it back note for note.

AS I got older and more experienced.......That expanded to hearing the individual instruments/voices in an ensemble and hearing their harmony.

Learning by ear was the process of listening to a piece a phrase at a time and learning to play the piece from hearing only.

What say you all.

@Jeanette ...FWIW in our R & B band .....on the charts I know really well, I dot really read the notes any more, I just glance at them from time to time to keep track of where we are in the longer rest periods. You are probably getting to that stage in some of your charts.

 

[Jeanette]

@Jeanette ...FWIW in our R & B band .....on the charts I know really well, I dot really read the notes any more, I just glance at them from time to time to keep track of where we are in the longer rest periods. You are probably getting to that stage in some of your charts.

Ok, I give up, I must have just remembered it........

Jx

 

[richardr]

Ok, I give up, I must have just remembered it........

Jx

That's a weak excuse for not giving "ear" another try. Give it a go when you're not tired. From what you're saying, you may get a pleasant surprise.

 

[richardr]

Hmmmm.....it seems to me we need to arrive at consensus of what ear playing is.

I understand playing by ear to be the ability to hear musical phrase and play it back note for note.

AS I got older and more experienced.......That expanded to hearing the individual instruments/voices in an ensemble and hearing their harmony.

Learning by ear was the process of listening to a piece a phrase at a time and learning to play the piece from hearing only.

What say you all.

Definitions are useful when it's important to agree the precise meaning of a word or phrase, for example in a legal document, but in discussions such as this one it's sufficient that we know broadly what it means. If we try too hard to define what we mean by "playing by ear" it will get us nowhere, not only because we'll all end up respectfully disagreeing with each other, but also because , if we do ultimately agree a definition, it will limit our discussion which is the more interesting for its diversity.

 

[kevgermany]

I understand playing by ear to be the ability to hear musical phrase and play it back note for note.

Yes

Learning by ear was the process of listening to a piece a phrase at a time and learning to play the piece from hearing only.

Yes

Definitions are useful when it's important to agree the precise meaning of a word or phrase, for example in a legal document, but in discussions such as this one it's sufficient that we know broadly what it means.

Much of the circular discussion has come from conflating learning by ear and playing by ear. Clear simple definitions such as Jazzaferri's clear things so we all have a common base to work from.

The other problem with the music/ear discussion is that there's no 'best'. There are situations where one is better than the other, but it's important to accept both skills as valid.
And to paraphrase what I said before, the ear is your personal feedback to whether you're right, wrong, needing to improve. Irrespective of playing by ear or from notes.


Now. Let's make the thread useful, talk about the practicalities and how to's of playing by ear and how to get better at it.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Interesting ...or pointless?

 

[ac30kev]

My interpretation of playing by ear is playing notes which bear the correct relation to each other, but may not be in the right key, e.g. playing a jazz standard in G instead of the usual Bb, and all without the sheet music. I picked up Fly me to the moon by messing with scales (not exactly hard...) but have never read it. It sounds fine to me (apart from the occasional honking/farting noises I may make...)
I know how it should sound and can work it out to play by myself, but would probably struggle playing with others due to me potentially being in a different key.
Sometimes, I get lucky; I played a Beatles song and later learned I had chosen the right key by accident.
Other times, I transpose the tune, especially if I have to play lower than low C.
Conversely, I sometimes use sheet music to start me off with a tune I know, continuing under my own steam, or have a quick look at the sheet music if I get a little lost and then carrying on.

 

[Eoe]

Alright first stuff reading is essential. You're reading practice makes you develop so much faster than you realize. Even if you don't see it ignoring at least 20 minutes of reading a day really hurts you. And it hurt you at every level. Ear training in theory is essential. On the guitar I do not have to think about where my notes are and how much to bend a note I just think of this and I want to produce and my fingers produced it automatically my mind is free to think of the tune and think of the theory involved with the tune and plan ahead but I am going to do. I am learning the sax and I am asking to think where is the third where is a fifth and I really don't always know what this know it's going to sound like cuz I am still working on my lip and it is always like riding a whammy bar. I can produce several notes with just one fingering. In college I used to crutch that is coming back to haunt me now. I always visualize the guitar fretboard when I'm doing Theory I was already proficient on the guitar when I went to college.. now I am kind of having to learn for the tones are. I apologize that my secretary takes bad dictation. I will fix this post later

 

[Jazzaferri]

We all learn to play by ear first and foremost as it is through hearing "music" and playing it that we get the associations and relationships. If done regularly and moderately intensely at an early age and continued in life, parts of the brain are actually enlarged and the neural pathways intensified. Think how we learn to speak. We don't learn the alphabet first and practice it in a bunch of different ways. We learn to speak by copying experts who "jam" with us.

Notation is a way that complex musical ideas can be efficiently remembered and passed on to others. It is a very inexact method as much of the feel/emotive context has to be added...either by direction of an a ensemble leader or the players themselves.

I believe that while using notation as an aid is very helpful, a more meaningful performance will be made if the piece is learned by ear from either other players or a recording. I do understand that in large ensembles, one cannot at first hear the individual parts, but by knowing the overall piece ones part comes into context.

Something that is not emphasized enough IMO is identifying intervals. Particularly critical for late learners.

 

[BigMartin]

Think how we learn to speak. We don't learn the alphabet first and practice it in a bunch of different ways. We learn to speak by copying experts who "jam" with us.

Yes, but we do that as infants, whose brains are not yet fully developed. I'm not sure an adult European could learn Mandarin that way, even if the native speakers did have the patience to go throught the "Goo-goo, gaa-gaa" (or whatever the Madarin equivalent is) stage with them.

 

[nigeld]

Think how we learn to speak. We don't learn the alphabet first and practice it in a bunch of different ways. We learn to speak by copying experts who "jam" with us.

This is how children and adults learn to sing, but that doesn't mean that it's the best way to learn to play a saxophone. Our brains are automatically wired up to mimic the sounds made by other people, but I doubt if they are automatically wired up to turn sounds into complex finger movements. And, as @BigMartin says, our ability to learn languages drops off significantly as we become older, so a system of learning that is appropriate for a seven year child old will not necessarily work for a 50 year old adult.

 

[Colin the Bear]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people who purport to enjoy listening to music, then make a Godawful noise with instrument or voice. Same with speaking innit? I sometimes wonder if it's the same language. If you know how to spell a word then there's more understanding in the pronunciation. If you know a little etymology of the word then you can be inventive with it. The mimic aspect of the brain must switch off at some stage or there wouldn't be strong regional accents in foreign places.

Kids learning can be so amusing. The wrong word or a mispronunciation can have you in stitches. eg character in a video game gets a power up and proclaims "I'm invincible!" 8 year old player comments " Well I can still see him". Same with music. A wrong interval here and a wrong interval there and everything sounds ok but when you come out of the middle eight.....you've changed key.

There isn't a single department in music that doesn't make one a better player. A good reader gets an education when playing something that wouldn't get played without reading. Theory can tell you where to look for that note, progression, phrase, key change etc and playing by ear opens your playing to heart, soul, mind. We ignore any aspect to our detriment.

 

[kevgermany]

Think how we learn to speak. We don't learn the alphabet first and practice it in a bunch of different ways. We learn to speak by copying experts who "jam" with us.

This is how I learned Afrikaans and German. Frankly I got a lot more out of it than the traditional methods used on me at school where I had to learn Latin and French.

This is how children and adults learn to sing, but that doesn't mean that it's the best way to learn to play a saxophone. Our brains are automatically wired up to mimic the sounds made by other people, but I doubt if they are automatically wired up to turn sounds into complex finger movements. And, as @BigMartin says, our ability to learn languages drops off significantly as we become older, so a system of learning that is appropriate for a seven year child old will not necessarily work for a 50 year old adult.

Not sure, see my previous comment. However learning sax is movement, pitch, mouth, lungs as well as the music. Some theory, even if it's the way the keys go, is necessary.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Like all things to do with learning...everyone has some differences in what works best for them.

You cannot really learn to play music just from notation. There is far too much nuance which takes it from just sound to music that isn't in the notes.

a number of far better educators than I will ever be ascribe to learning pieces by ear before you pick up the horn to begin to play it. Hal Galper for one.

 

[Eoe]

Usually when I hear the term play by ear it's a guitar player that can't read are a band without charts and they want me to learn the music by ear. I do not know about anybody else but if I'm going to take the time to pick a piece and learn it by ear I'm going to write it down we call that transcribing. I am at least going to jot down my version of music shorthand at the very least. I have not read note for note in a long time I mostly look at a phrase and Interpret It. You cannot read afro cuban or even jazz and play it the way it is written you have to interpret that music. Same way chopin If you think back to your piano classes studying to pass your piano bar you have to be taught how to play a Chopin Chart.

 

[Jazzaferri]

When one can play a song in any key with little or no practice one can be sure of two things.

You know the tune

You are getting to know your horn.

 

[trimmy]

@richardr you will love this vid

View: https://youtu.be/nMiCg8sDQh4

 

[rhysonsax]

@richardr you will love this vid

View: https://youtu.be/nMiCg8sDQh4

Not safe to talk on your phone when you are driving, but fine to record a ten minute video ?

Reminds me that I overtook someone driving in the middle lane of the M4 last month and he was watching a video/film on his phone fitted to the dashboard.

Rhys