Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[Colin the Bear]

Oh i did get sidetracked but by mpc GAS....I'm cured now

You're never cured, you're just in remission. 😉

 

[Colin the Bear]

She rapped my fingers

The philosophy of teaching by violence has fortunately fallen out of fashion, apart from martial arts that is.

 

[Shoyu]

The philosophy of teaching by violence has fortunately fallen out of fashion, apart from martial arts that is.

To be fair that was the only incident I remember. Her snappy little dog on the other hand was a different story, he bit me more than once!

 

[Jazzaferri]

That person was not a teacher, only occupying the position of one.

 

[richardr]

Shoyu, first, thanks for taking the trouble to reply to my post. It looks as if music teaching has come a long way in the right direction since I was at school. We has "music" lessons at secondary school but all I remember of those is the school song drummed into us, "Gaudeamus Igitur". No-one was taught to play an instrument.
I had the same experience as you with piano lessons starting at age 7. My mother, a professional infant teacher and gifted musician, taught me, and I remember her saying, "read the music, read the music" when I'd learned the piece and could play it without. I still can't sight-read to any useful extent but what she taught me has stuck and now sheet music is often an easier way to learn bits with which I struggle by "ear".
Much later, my first saxophone teacher made it clear that she couldn't teach except from sheet music.

 

[Alice]

Some interesting points raised.

This year I have mainly been teaching whole class instrumental sessions, so, although we do some note reading games and all my classes have lots of practice at reading rhythms, it is not the focus of the session. We are there to make music and to teach music through the instrument (sounds obvious but I remember music lessons at school being distinctly unmusical until you suddenly needed all the bells and whistles for GCSE!). The new national curriculum expects note reading to be gradually introduced quite early (initially making the link between sound and symbol - this does not necessarily mean traditional notation). My classes are pretty hot at rhythm reading, this helps with performance and composition. I have introduced standard notation but I don't labour it. We do some games but if I provide that kind of notation for a class I will write the note names in. Steel Pan notation works well for whole class teaching too.

All my whole class lessons have elements of playing by ear (some more than others), sometimes it is the warm up, sometimes echoing rhythms, sometimes we will learn a whole tune. I also ask pupils to improvise short phrases for the rest of the class to copy. I was observed recently and the inspector was impressed with their aural skills.

I have a few small group/individual lessons. I do lots of playing by ear at the start but I have to admit I haven't done any for a while with my Grade 5/6 pupils (they may be in for a surprise after the holiday!).

With regards to is it easier to transition one way rather than the other, I suppose it depends on the individual, I can only comment on my own experience. I could play by ear as a child but had it slapped down (literally!). I turned up to a piano lesson full of excitement that I could play Chariots of Fire (5 flats I thank you!!), my teacher asked where the music was. I was a bit puzzled, she had just heard it! She rapped my fingers and told me "WE DO NOT PLAY WITHOUT THE MUSIC!". I was about 8 at the time so did as I was told (things change!). I try to include playing by ear, reading, improvising, singing, composition (obviously not all in one lesson) so my pupils don't grow up thinking one way is wrong.

That is shocking... I remember a similar explosion from the women who looked after me at "nursery school" except it wasn't a school, it was 1974 and in her front room. She dished out colouring pages in the afternoon and took hold of my wrist and stopped me from painting because I was going outside of the lines. I also mixed paint when she hadn't told us to. I think that is awful that you had your fingers rapped. Luckily it didn't put you off music and the woman who had me at four didn't put me off art.
What age group do you teach? Sorry if you've been asked that before.. I agree with you about how music lessons used to be completely unmusical. Both of my kids always had to have a recorder for lessons but if anyone played their own instruments they were strictly for music clubs and orchestra outside the school curriculum lessons.

 

[Shoyu]

Currently year 2 to year 11. I do lots of recorder in primary schools. If someone turns up to a curriculum (non instrument specific) lesson who plays something I encourage them to use it in the lesson.

 

[Shoyu]

That is shocking... I remember a similar explosion from the women who looked after me at "nursery school" except it wasn't a school, it was 1974 and in her front room. She dished out colouring pages in the afternoon and took hold of my wrist and stopped me from painting because I was going outside of the lines. I also mixed paint when she hadn't told us to. I think that is awful that you had your fingers rapped. Luckily it didn't put you off music and the woman who had me at four didn't put me off art.
What age group do you teach? Sorry if you've been asked that before.. I agree with you about how music lessons used to be completely unmusical. Both of my kids always had to have a recorder for lessons but if anyone played their own instruments they were strictly for music clubs and orchestra outside the school curriculum lessons.

She didn't put me off music, not sure she entirely fostered a love of the piano though! Interestingly the teacher who started me on the recorder was a class teacher who also taught me (aged 6) that not all adults were nice. She hated me, the feeling grew to be mutual. I have since come to wonder if it was my affinity with music that she resented.

 

[Tenor Viol]

At the risk of severe disagreements...

Firstly, there are no absolutes - some stuff works for some people, it doesn't for others. But... and I suspect this mostly depends on how you were first introduced to music.... to my way of thinking to 'play by ear' requires me to recongise that I am currently playing note x, the next note y is above it at an interval of a minor third, which is.... what? Reading from music, current note happens to be a G next note happens to be a Bb, which is a minor third above the G. I don't need to know its intervallic realtionshipt to the preceding note, I just need to know it's a Bb.

There is little point in quoting the likes of Louis Armstrong - his position was very different and it is not a fair comparison. No access to teaching, he spent hours and hours over a very long time learning to play. People like me cannot possibly invest that amount of time and keep a day job and try to play in various groups.

We also have to accept that there is a difference between playing jazz/pop/rock songs and playing Sibelius Symphony #2 (which I did this evening in orchestra). The former is readily amenable to learning by rote or by ear and being performed to an adequate standard, whereas this extract from the Sibelius is gogin to present a few challenges

 

[Shoyu]

Totally agree with regards orchestral playing. I have just spent the evening playing picc and fighting the urge to nod off during the extensive bars rest.

When I play (or attempt) to play by ear I don't think in terms of interval (that was never my strong point in ABRSM exams) I just go on intuition. Maybe that's why it takes me so long!

 

[trimmy]

Maybe that's why it takes me so long!

Taking into account the above statement would you learn a new piece of music with the dots much quicker than by ear ?

 

[Shoyu]

Taking into account the above statement would you learn a new piece of music with the dots much quicker than by ear ?

Totally, mostly I do play from dots and actively avoid playing by ear! It's good to at least attempt to practice what I preach though, I would love to be better at playing by ear.

 

[Jazzaferri]

Something I am reflecting on at the moment. My first piano teacher encouraged me to play around not just read the notes. It's 60 years ago, but I suspect she saw my inability to stay focussed.

I started sax at age 11 and my teacher Encouraged me in improv too. I am wondering if this is in part why I find improv much easier than reading. Will think more on this.

A few years ago I was invited to play in a pretty good sax quartet. One chart we played (a jazz number I can't recall arm)had so many longer eighth and sixteenth passages at a good clip that there was no way I could play what was written as fast as we were going. I just faked it, and it worked. I didn't stay though, I am sure I would have crashed and burned pretty quickly.

I am so envious of those orchestral musicians who read so fluently. Oh well, grass is greener etc.

 

[richardr]

At the risk of severe disagreements...

Disagreement, here it is, but not "severe", rather a friendly comparison of experience.
First, you're right, what works for some doesn't work for others. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, my mother introduced me to playing via sheet music and that didn't work for me. It might have done if I'd been interested in playing the music my mother liked but I wasn't. Would it have worked if my mother had taught me to play by ear and improvise music that I liked (I had to wait to age 10 to discover that there was a thrilling alternative to my mother's classical taste)? I don't know but it might have.
However there was still the family piano which I played single-handedly by ear. I don't remember when I started doing this; the first clear recollection I have of doing it is in my early-to-mid teens, picking out walking basses and other rhythms that I'd heard on the radio.
Going to your example of G followed by Bb, it's only in the past few months that I've learned (from my teacher) what an "interval" is and the G - Bb is a minor third. What that knowledge does for my playing, I've yet to discover, but no doubt it will fall into place. However I've played countless minor thirds by ear without knowing what they were or even the names of the notes I was playing. It works like this: if I'm playing a tune by ear/memory or making it up as I go along, I know what sound (pitch) I want to make and my fingers usually go to the right keys without any conscious intervening process of thinking what note I'm going to play. If in this process I were to blow a Gm arpeggio and you were to ask me what notes I'd played or what they were, taken together, I'd have to play them again (if I could remember what I'd played) and take note of what they were in order to give you an answer. Asking me to identify what I've played is something my teacher does and this is how I answer. I think he wants me to be able to identify sequences of notes simply by ear without playing them. I can't do that but I can see the beginnings of this ability beginning to emerge.
It's worth mentioning that the accuracy of my fingers in knowing where to go diminishes as intervals increase but where I go wrong I usually produce an instant and accurate correction - again, not always!
When I attempt to play from sheet music the process is very different. The dots alone give me no idea of the sound I want to make; that comes only when I've learned to play the piece from memory. However the dots do tell my fingers where to go, again provided the intervals are small and there aren't too many sharps or flats. Here I realise I've advanced over the past few months; I remember posting not long ago that I had to go through the process of identifying each note then how to play it. When it comes to sheet music I always have struggled more with timing than the pitches of the notes.
Louis Armstrong had no access to teaching? This is what Wikipedia says: "Cornet player Bunk Johnson said he taught Armstrong (then 11) to play by ear at Dago Tony's Tonk in New Orleans,[7] although in his later years Armstrong gave the credit to Oliver." In any case, my point stands: both Louis Armstrong and Lester Young had learned to play very well by ear before they had to learn to read. I know one local case of a good play-by-the-dots pianist who taught himself to play by ear and my sister's working on the same thing, albeit in a different way. Are there better known examples of people who have first become good sheet-music-only musicians and then learned to play well by ear?
Finally, I couldn't agree more that playing by ear and improvisation won't work for long pieces of music to be played according to a written score, although I think that some musicians learn their parts so well that they don't need the sheet music when they play.

 

[trimmy]

Arn't we all playing by ear whether we read the dots or not ?
If I'm learning a piece and i play a bum note, my ear tells me it was bum !
Same as doing a scale and i play a wrong note my ear tells me !

Solved...close the thread 🙂

 

[Dibbs]

...The dots alone give me no idea of the sound...

Do more reading practice and they soon will. For a reader, looking at the the dots is very nearly as good as listening to it. Better sometimes, since they are never out of tune.

 

[kevgermany]

Do more reading practice and they soon will. For a reader, looking at the the dots is very nearly as good as listening to it. Better sometimes, since they are never out of tune.

Too true. I was struggling with a piece recently. Couldn't practice due to a chest infection. Just took the dots and did my practice mentally. Was much easier to get right without a sax in my hands. When I felt better to I picked the sax up and it was there.

 

[richardr]

Arn't we all playing by ear whether we read the dots or not ?
If I'm learning a piece and i play a bum note, my ear tells me it was bum !
Same as doing a scale and i play a wrong note my ear tells me !

So don't tell us you can't. It's like me and sight reading - you'll have to practice - if you want to.

 

[Lesley]

Too true. I was struggling with a piece recently. Couldn't practice due to a chest infection. Just took the dots and did my practice mentally. Was much easier to get right without a sax in my hands. When I felt better to I picked the sax up and it was there.

So...what does one do if you can't sing or hum dots?

 

[Jazzaferri]

The downside of dots.

As has been said the music isn't in the nottes, it's in the spaces between the notes. Anyone who writes with Sibelius or Finale can tell you that until you put some feel in, quantized notes are pretty unmusical. Dots give you the pitches, and the approximate timing. Hearing them played well gives the feel.