Playing the saxophone Learn to play by ear or by reading music

[Targa]

That's the idea. Why doesn't the prospect excite me?

Well it's got two girls dancing in it, otherwise it's just another proof that 'DJs' are just talentless 'wannabes' who think fiddling about with knobs and switches makes them musicians.

 

[Colin the Bear]

DJ's aren't musicians, they are entertainers though. The difference between a good one and a bad one can seriously affect a function.

 

[ProfJames]

DJ's aren't musicians, they are entertainers though. The difference between a good one and a bad one can seriously affect a function.

It's all down to the records..................

 

[Colin the Bear]

Well.... for the record....

 

[kevgermany]

It's all down to the records..................

More like judging the mood and knowing what to play then.

 

[Reed Warbler]

DJ's aren't musicians, they are entertainers though. The difference between a good one and a bad one can seriously affect a function.

Bad DJs have certainly affected some of my functions, hearing, to name but one, better keep quiet about the others.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Bad DJs have certainly affected some of my functions, hearing, to name but one, better keep quiet about the others.

This was something I knew very little about until it turned out that a sound engineer friend of mine also DJs (he is a musician too, used to be a session player, but due to injury doesn't anymore). He's quite fussy about SPLs and sound quality, but I suspect he's unusual...

 

[Colin the Bear]

I've seen DJ's with very expensive kit playing nasty music. It's the talking that lets a lot of them down. A good DJ gets the crowd on side. Of course most of the 70's greats are dead, in the dock or in gaol.

 

[Shoyu]

I read and mostly I'm totally reliant on it. I can play by ear but it takes me ages, I'm better at it on an instrument I "can't play" (ie violin). Insane really, I can sing by ear!

 

[Tenor Viol]

I read and mostly I'm totally reliant on it. I can play by ear but it takes me ages, I'm better at it on an instrument I "can't play" (ie violin). Insane really, I can sing by ear!

"Singing by ear" is something you've been learning to do since you were born, that's why up to a certain level of complexity, it is relatively straightforward to do. Most rock/pop/jazz songs are meant to be appealing and memorable so tend to be in relative terms 'simple' and also memorable. The bass choral line in Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony is not simple and whilst I am sure with a huge amount of effort is could be done, it doesn't make sense (I've sung it several times here's a link, try to listen to the first 4 minutes at least 🙂 Sadly, BBC iPlayer isn't showing the recording of the performance I sang in at the Proms).
Playing an instrument by ear, whilst conceptually similar, is different. For a start you have not been doing it since you were born. You have to learn the skill-set of playing the instrument and then another skill-set of translating what you here into a facsimile via the instrument. Depending on how developed you ear is for hearing intervals and translating them onto the instrument is, this is a big job. Inevitably, some people find it easier to do than others.
Whilst I can understand the utility in being able to do that (certainly in small band scenarios) given I can read music (and most of the stuff I play is not rock/pop/jazz songs) then at teh moment I struggle to justify the time it would take to get better at it. Maybe when I retire...

 

[Shoyu]

There would absolutely no sense in playing the orchestral stuff I do by ear. I have been to folk sessions and been in awe but then it was pointed out that most of these folks have been playin together for 40 years and know each other's tunes inside out.

I spent many years singing in choirs, always soprano, I need the tune - I can't sight sing!!

 

[Tenor Viol]

There would absolutely no sense in playing the orchestral stuff I do by ear. I have been to folk sessions and been in awe but then it was pointed out that most of these folks have been playin together for 40 years and know each other's tunes inside out.

I spent many years singing in choirs, always soprano, I need the tune - I can't sight sing!!

Tsk! 🙂 I sing 1st bass. My sight-reading for singing is reasonable and as a bass, we rarely get the tune, but we are usually the basis of the harmonic structure. I've done verything from big choral works with full symphony orchestra (Walton Belshazzar's Feast, the RVW above, Elgar Gerontius etc), loads of Baroque (Handel, Bach etc), some classical (Haydn and Mozart mainly). In chamber choirs I've done a lot of Renaissance and modern a cappells stuff. And I've sung services at about 20 cathedrals now with various groups.
Better get back on topic as this is the playing by ear thread....

 

[richardr]

I read and mostly I'm totally reliant on it. I can play by ear but it takes me ages, I'm better at it on an instrument I "can't play" (ie violin). Insane really, I can sing by ear!

This is especially interesting because you're a teacher. The first thing is at it's long been my theory (and I acknowledge that many disagree with me, respectfully or otherwise) that music is usually taught as the art of translating sheet music into the correct sound and this results in many musicians being absolutely dependent on the dots, unable to play without sheet music to read from. I'd be very interested in your view on this. I must emphasise that I see nothing wrong with this for musicians who will never need to play without sheet music.
The second proposition I want to try out on you is that it's easier for people who have learned initially to play by ear to learn to sight-read than it is for people who are dependent on sheet music to learn to play by ear. A few of my own musical heroes, particularly Louis Armstrong and Lester Young, played by ear initially but learned to read later on in order to play pre-arranged parts in big bands. What's your opinion?
Another opinion of mine which is hotly disputed is that some people are naturally more able to cope with sheet music while others find reading so difficult that they give up when they might have learned more easily to play by ear. Do you take on pupils who say from the outset, "no reading for me, I want to play by ear"? Do you ever find pupils who start reading but would make better progress playing by ear? If so, what do you do about it?
It's my impression that teachers who are able and willing to teach the "play by ear" route are in a minority because sheet music is the conventional way to teach and that they ought to be taught to teach "ear" so that they can offer both routes to musicianship. Again, I'd welcome your opinion.
If you go through this rather long thread you'll see how some readers struggle with learning "ear". We've tried to help them but it's a bit like the blind leading the blind. Have you any suggestions for a method of teaching dots-only musicians to play by ear?
Finally, my take on you being better at playing by ear on an instrument that you don't play: could it be that for you, learning to play an instrument is achieving a state where your finger, your lungs, your mouth etc. work automatically to produce the sounds that the sheet music requires? And, when you "can't play" an instrument, that means that you have to think about how to produce those sounds? Perhaps making the sound you want is the essence of playing by ear.

 

[trimmy]

many musicians being absolutely dependent on the dots, unable to play without sheet music to read from.

Not necessarily true, lots of players learn from the dots then go out and perform without the dots !

The second proposition I want to try out on you is that it's easier for people who have learned initially to play by ear to learn to sight-read than it is for people who are dependent on sheet music to learn to play by ear. A few of my own musical heroes, particularly Louis Armstrong and Lester Young, played by ear initially but learned to read later on in order to play pre-arranged parts in big bands.

How do you know it was easier for those players to learn the dots at a later stage ?

 

[richardr]

Not necessarily true, lots of players learn from the dots then go out and perform without the dots !

I didn't say, all musicians who are taught by the dots, only many of them. I know plenty of musicians in that position and, I think, so do you.

How do you know it was easier for those players to learn the dots at a later stage ?

I don't know. That's why I'm asking the question.

 

[trimmy]

Its all opinions you will never get a true answer, Shoyu will give her opinion which will differ from yours, mine and professional musicians we have on the forum !

Just play our instruments the way which is best for us, yes ideally to do both is the ultimate aim but to do both to a profesional standard is unobtainable for me at my (our) age.
Just my opinion 😉

 

[richardr]

Its all opinions you will never get a true answer, Shoyu will give her opinion which will differ from yours, mine and professional musicians we have on the forum !

Just play our instruments the way which is best for us, yes ideally to do both is the ultimate aim but to do both to a profesional standard is unobtainable for me at my (our) age.
Just my opinion 😉

You're only partly right. Some opinions are right; the trick is knowing which they are. I have my own opinions but I don't imagine that they're wholly right and now I have the opportunity of asking a professional teacher, @Shoyu I shall value her replies which may well change some of my opinions.
What I'm hoping to achieve in the long run is to:
1. Help beginners to make choices suited to their abilities and the kind of music they want to play - dots for some, ear for others and, for those who can and want to put in the effort, both.
2. Help people who play from sheet music only who want to play by ear as well to achieve that.
I regard what we've done so far as being experimental, @Jeanette being CGP (Chief Guinea Pig) and I'd like her to make progress while establishing a method that works for others like her who want to play by ear but have no idea where to start.
@trimmy I know this is of no practical interest to you because you're happy with the way you're going, which is improving your sight reading, and all respect to you for knowing what you want and going for it instead of being side-tracked.

 

[trimmy]

I would like to play by ear eventually but it takes time and its time i haven't got !

 

[trimmy]

instead of being side-tracked.

Oh i did get sidetracked but by mpc GAS....I'm cured now

 

[Shoyu]

Some interesting points raised.

This year I have mainly been teaching whole class instrumental sessions, so, although we do some note reading games and all my classes have lots of practice at reading rhythms, it is not the focus of the session. We are there to make music and to teach music through the instrument (sounds obvious but I remember music lessons at school being distinctly unmusical until you suddenly needed all the bells and whistles for GCSE!). The new national curriculum expects note reading to be gradually introduced quite early (initially making the link between sound and symbol - this does not necessarily mean traditional notation). My classes are pretty hot at rhythm reading, this helps with performance and composition. I have introduced standard notation but I don't labour it. We do some games but if I provide that kind of notation for a class I will write the note names in. Steel Pan notation works well for whole class teaching too.

All my whole class lessons have elements of playing by ear (some more than others), sometimes it is the warm up, sometimes echoing rhythms, sometimes we will learn a whole tune. I also ask pupils to improvise short phrases for the rest of the class to copy. I was observed recently and the inspector was impressed with their aural skills.

I have a few small group/individual lessons. I do lots of playing by ear at the start but I have to admit I haven't done any for a while with my Grade 5/6 pupils (they may be in for a surprise after the holiday!).

With regards to is it easier to transition one way rather than the other, I suppose it depends on the individual, I can only comment on my own experience. I could play by ear as a child but had it slapped down (literally!). I turned up to a piano lesson full of excitement that I could play Chariots of Fire (5 flats I thank you!!), my teacher asked where the music was. I was a bit puzzled, she had just heard it! She rapped my fingers and told me "WE DO NOT PLAY WITHOUT THE MUSIC!". I was about 8 at the time so did as I was told (things change!). I try to include playing by ear, reading, improvising, singing, composition (obviously not all in one lesson) so my pupils don't grow up thinking one way is wrong.