Saxophones Le Blanc Vito tenor

[Vlad]

Collected the Vito YTS-23 today. Lovely almost mint condition, darker gold lacquer than the 25, and well cared for. Black box case in A1 condition too.

Got the neck on, a bit tight but better than too loose, added my mouthpiece and it played 🙂 despite being in a cupboard since the early 2000s. It was purchased new in the late 90s but a degenerative joint condition meant the owner had to give up.

Found two issues, the neck octave was staying open from G1 down. Quick check and the body octave pad was stuck, a flick and back to normal.
Also, Bb1, B1 and C#1 are coming out easily enough, maybe easier than on the 25, BUT they sound like overtones, higher pitch than I expected? I thought it was me, embouchure, voicing etc but they are ok on the 25 and changing my throat shape, tongue position and embouchure didn't resolve it. Would a leak cause this or is it me?

It is in vgc and plays well, just a few tweaks I reckon. I'll take it to my teacher/tech next week to get his opinion. As the YTS-25 is a YTS-23 plus high F# I thought the 25 and the Vito 23 would sound the same but I'm sure the Vito is a tad 'richer' and a tad deeper?
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Nice !
...did you try blowing 'em both at once though ? ( you know you want to 😀 )

 

[skeller047]

Also, Bb1, B1 and C#1 are coming out easily enough, maybe easier than on the 25, BUT they sound like overtones, higher pitch than I expected? I thought it was me, embouchure, voicing etc but they are ok on the 25 and changing my throat shape, tongue position and embouchure didn't resolve it. Would a leak cause this or is it me?

Get the G# bar on the top of the F# key looked at. I’m betting the G# key is cracking open when you play those notes.

 

[cappers]

Thank you @skeller047
I'll have the sax checked next week.

However I still wonder if it's me? From what I've read, unwanted overtones on the bell notes are often caused by improper air support or embouchure. I only played it for a few minutes yesterday before going to rehearsal with the Yamaha. I'll try again in while; as said no issue on the Yamaha with same mouthpiece so could be a leak on the Vito.

 

[cappers]

It is said a bad worker blames their tools but I do think the problem with the Vito bell notes is a regulation issue or leak.

I tried both Soloist and 5C mpcs with 2.0 and 2.5 Alex DC reeds and the bell key notes are uncontrollable and come out too high and the octave key doesn't appear to affect this.
D1 is also a bit stuffy and overall the low notes seem have some resistance, so maybe I'm overblowing to compensate a leak and getting overtones?

The middle octave vent is opening and the neck vent closing as it should now, but if not set entirely correct could it cause bell note issues?

Get the G# bar on the top of the F# key looked at. I’m betting the G# key is cracking open when you play those notes.

I closed the upper and lower keys - BAGFEDC and played the bell notes and the G# key didn't appear to move. I can't see any missing corks/felts or any loose linkages.

I'll check again tonight with the leak light.

One thing I noticed is the left pinky table is easier to reach on the Vito. On the Yama the angle of the table to the body looks different, making it stick out further and less acute angle but my little finger has to stretch to hit Bb1. Perhaps a PO modified it for bigger hands?

Probably will buy it though, as it plays and sounds like the YTS-25 (apart from this issue) and is in better looking condition.

 

[Vlad]

You'd be bonkers not to buy it if he wants 250 ish for it, I'll 'ave it if you don't want it ! 🙂

 

[cappers]

You'd be bonkers not to buy it if he wants 250 ish for it, I'll 'ave it if you don't want it ! 🙂

It's mine as long as any repairs don't cost more than the horn, which I doubt. Even if it cost the same I've seen Vito 23s go for more on Reverb.

A backup 23 would be handy though........telling myself I haven't caught GAS, this is practicalities.

 

[Ghr9204]

It is said a bad worker blames their tools but I do think the problem with the Vito bell notes is a regulation issue or leak.

If you buy it from him, I would have a shop COA it.

A minor leak can mimic a player problem.

 

[cappers]

I might have found the problem.......the body octave pad is not opening with the octave key and the G key and below.

It will flick open with my finger but there's no resistance as it were, floppy and won't open without help. On the Yama it is a precise open/shut action.

I'd be grateful if anyone would confirm this could be the cause or contribute to the bell note overtone issue.
Thanks in advance.

 

[cappers]

If you buy it from him, I would have a shop COA it.

A minor leak can mimic a player problem.

We've agreed to have it checked before I hand over the money 😉

 

[Colin the Bear]

The hinge rod looks like it's protruding. It may be binding and a unscrewing itself. A drop, literally, of oil and a little back and forth with a screwdriver may be all that's needed.

Sitting unused, for long periods lubrication dries out.

If it's beyond you a trip to the tech is on the cards.

A Yam in good condition will sing top to bottom, effortlessly.

 

[cappers]

The hinge rod looks like it's protruding. It may be binding and a unscrewing itself. A drop, literally, of oil and a little back and forth with a screwdriver may be all that's needed.

Thanks @Colin the Bear. I'll give that a go. It is going to a tech next week whether or not oiling does the trick

A Yam in good condition will sing top to bottom, effortlessly.

Agree. The 25 is like that, so I was a bit surprised about the 23. Not bad if that is all that is wrong with it after 20 years in the cupboard. The pads seem supple and everything else works.

 

[skeller047]

You have leaks. Stuffy D, low notes on the left pinky table not working right. The body octave key is likely not the culprit for those low notes.

FWIW, the best way to test for the G# key issue is to play E, then add the G# key. If the tone changes, the bar needs adjusting. You often cannot see the tiny leak that results.

The fact that a rod was backing out means the horn needs a COA. Take every key off, clean the pads (replacing those that need it), clean the old oil and dirt from the mechanism, reassemble with fresh oil, and adjust all the regulations. Address any other issues (like the body octave key).

This is not an unusual requirement for an old instrument, especially one that has been sitting unused for a while. In fact, any instrument that you buy used is likely to need this service. Also, every 1-3 years your current horn should get this service, the amount of time between services depending on how much you play.

 

[Ghr9204]

Also, every 1-3 years your current horn should get this service, the amount of time between services depending on how much you play.

For a long time, I was doing my own COA because locally we did not have a qualified repairer. But, it was a pleasant surprise finally have one who could, a joy not me having to do, expend a little quid and receive back 3 saxes (SAT) in ready to play condition, now awaiting another 2 (A) in the shop. Have a few clarinets and a flute targeted for them in future.

 

[cappers]

You have leaks. Stuffy D, low notes on the left pinky table not working right. The body octave key is likely not the culprit for those low notes.

@skeller047 Thanks, as you said except singular as far as the leak light revealed. Low C, no surprise. Have to really push down on the key even then a ciggy paper gap.

open.... ....closed

The hinge rod looks like it's protruding. It may be binding and a unscrewing itself. A drop, literally, of oil and a little back and forth with a screwdriver may be all that's needed.

I oiled the rod and left it overnight and could turn the screw but turning it down enough to engage the body octave bar tightened the octave keytouch. Compared to the 25, the body octave mech feels loose, the pin doesn't really push the horseshoe bit..

I have Stephen Howard's book but couldn't find this specific problem i.e. octave key cup sticking. Don't fancy fiddling with it too much as I don't know what I'm doing. Currently it opens ok then when left sticks. I've cleaned the pad with a Rizla paper and lighter fluid to no avail.

Off to the tech next week and hopefully minor problems, new pad (s?), oil, adjust.

 

[cappers]

Had another look and tweak of the body octave key mechanism but it is still sticking.

If G is pressed first and then the octave key, the body vent usually opens but sounds 'clicky'.
If the octave is pressed first then G, the body vent usually stays shut. On the 25 it's slick and fast.

Cleaned the pad and vent with lighter fluid again which helped a bit but to me the mech is wrong, seems loose and weak.

I then noticed the mech on the Vito is different to that on the YTS25. As far as I know, the Vito is a YTS23, which is basically the same as the 25 but w/o a high F# key. Didn't know the octave mechs differ? @Stephen Howard @ellinas @PigSquealer seem to be Yama/Vito experts, any comments? 😉

I also checked the G# action with the F key etc and no unwanted movement of the key cups.

So to my untrained eyes it looks like a leaky low C keycup and a dodgy body octave mechanism. I believe these would account for the overtoning on the low notes. I don't think its 'beginners' embouchure/voicing as I have no problem with low notes on the YTS-25.

Just out of interest! Going to the tech next week but I like to know what's what

YTS-25

Vito YTS-23

 

[Vlad]

Get him to run thru it with you and explain in detail, rather than just hand it over and get it back 'fixed' 🙂

 

[Stephen Howard]

Had another look and tweak of the body octave key mechanism but it is still sticking.

If G is pressed first and then the octave key, the body vent usually opens but sounds 'clicky'.
If the octave is pressed first then G, the body vent usually stays shut. On the 25 it's slick and fast.

Cleaned the pad and vent with lighter fluid again which helped a bit but to me the mech is wrong, seems loose and weak.

I then noticed the mech on the Vito is different to that on the YTS25. As far as I know, the Vito is a YTS23, which is basically the same as the 25 but w/o a high F# key. Didn't know the octave mechs differ? @Stephen Howard @ellinas @PigSquealer seem to be Yama/Vito experts, any comments? 😉

They probably used the older 23 octave mech on the Vito because it's cheaper - or because they had lots of them going spare after the 25 came to market.

Not sure why the 23's body octave key won't open under its own steam - it's a pretty simple (but efficient) passive mech.
Without seeing it I'd bet on there being a problem with the fork and pin connector.

The low C looks like it's taken a knock. At least I hope that's all it is - a leak like that, in that position, often turns up when the bell's been knock out of line.

 

[cappers]

@Stephen Howard thanks for the input. I read and re-read the section in your manual and your online guide to octave problems but unfortunately I'm none the wiser

Without seeing it I'd bet on there being a problem with the fork and pin connector.

I noticed the pivoty horseshoe shaped bit that opens the body vent (? fork and pin ?) looks out of kilter and not engaging the rod. Hard to see the misalignment on the photo but it slopes down away from the bottom of the tube by a couple of mm. When I push the circled bit upwards on its tube and operate G and octave, the body vent pad opens and closes ok 🙂
I guess a tech can bent it straight so it sits correctly.?

The low C looks like it's taken a knock.

I wondered as it is angled differently to that on the 25. No obvious dings, dents, creases or ripples on the body suggesting a bang or drop but who knows?

1st photo Vito 23, 2nd Yama 25. I actually thought the one on the 25 was crooked!

Thanks for the help. I'll find out next week what's wrong and what it'll cost.

 

[PigSquealer]

Had another look and tweak of the body octave key mechanism but it is still sticking.

If G is pressed first and then the octave key, the body vent usually opens but sounds 'clicky'.
If the octave is pressed first then G, the body vent usually stays shut. On the 25 it's slick and fast.

Cleaned the pad and vent with lighter fluid again which helped a bit but to me the mech is wrong, seems loose and weak.

I then noticed the mech on the Vito is different to that on the YTS25. As far as I know, the Vito is a YTS23, which is basically the same as the 25 but w/o a high F# key. Didn't know the octave mechs differ? @Stephen Howard @ellinas @PigSquealer seem to be Yama/Vito experts, any comments? 😉

I also checked the G# action with the F key etc and no unwanted movement of the key cups.

So to my untrained eyes it looks like a leaky low C keycup and a dodgy body octave mechanism. I believe these would account for the overtoning on the low notes. I don't think its 'beginners' embouchure/voicing as I have no problem with low notes on the YTS-25.

Just out of interest! Going to the tech next week but I like to know what's what

YTS-25
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Vito YTS-23
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Regardless of the octave version used they both work and have for many years.
Slow opening of body octave key is ;
Sticking pad, dirty or old.
* Lighter fluid will clean the verdigris off but not the sugars. Use a dampened earbud with pledge.
* Change the pad.
Action is lacking oil or needs cleaning.
Spring in system related.
Damage.

 

[Stephen Howard]

@Stephen Howard thanks for the input. I read and re-read the section in your manual and your online guide to octave problems but unfortunately I'm none the wiser

I noticed the pivoty horseshoe shaped bit that opens the body vent (? fork and pin ?) looks out of kilter and not engaging the rod. Hard to see the misalignment on the photo but it slopes down away from the bottom of the tube by a couple of mm. When I push the circled bit upwards on its tube and operate G and octave, the body vent pad opens and closes ok 🙂
I guess a tech can bent it straight so it sits correctly.?



I wondered as it is angled differently to that on the 25. No obvious dings, dents, creases or ripples on the body suggesting a bang or drop but who knows?

1st photo Vito 23, 2nd Yama 25. I actually thought the one on the 25 was crooked!

Thanks for the help. I'll find out next week what's wrong and what it'll cost.

I feel your pain. Octave key mechs are arguably the most complex devices on any horn. My article on the subject spans more than 150 pages...and yet barely scratches the surface.
There are times - when even after 45+ years at the bench - that I have to stop and think about how a particular mech is supposed to work. You really do have to have the thing right in front of you to be able to suss out what's going on.

You won't always see signs of a knock depending on how the knock came about. 'Case shock' knocks are very common - whereby the case takes an impact and transfers the force to the horn. There's often no visible damage, apart from the bell keys being nowhere near closing.

Yep, the 25's Eb guard has taken a whack. Doesn't look too bad but you might have some tonehole distortion going on there. Not such a big deal with a sprung-closed key, but an impact like that will have probably affected the low C...and that's a very different matter.