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Keilwerth tempermental B key

saxyjt

Saxus Circus Maximus
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One of my wife's best friends called the other day saying she had an issue with her Keilwerth soprano. More precisely with playing B/Bb and suspected a leak somewhere. I offered to take a look and so she came by yesterday.

I couldn't spot the issue right away, but the B did not always sound right. Checked for leaks a first time but couldn't see any obvious culprit. Play tested again! Occasional trouble once again. So I sent her away to have a glass of wine with my wife while I continued to check the horn. Then bingo, the leak was there, on the high C tonehole/key. The one that has an interesting double key arrangement with an auxilary key over it that apparently only works for the C# with the octave key. Something I had never seen before.

Anyways, the issue came from a tiny bit of cork under the adjustment screw that's linked to the B key that was loose. See on the picture below where the arrow points.

Keilwerth-ST90-Ckey.jpg


I first tried to re-use that piece of cork, but it vanished as I tried to pick it up, so I cut another of a similar thickness and glued it, but it went loose again because the adjustment screw doesn't hit the cork in the middle, but sideways, so it tends to loosen the cork. So I finally unscrewed the adjustment screw (!) and fitted a thicker piece of cork. Not an ideal solution, but it works. So far!

Since I do not see that many sopranos, as I'm not a pro repairer like some members here, I was curious to look at this horn and see how it was built, etc. I must say that I'm not impressed and I hope that it's not always like this. One of the palm keys is completely off and the pad barely catches the tonehole. So I compared it with my current reference, being my Yamaha 475 and I find it much better designed from a mechanical point of view. That is important on the long term to keep your horn going and I'm starting to understand why Yamahas have a reputation of holding their setup better than many others.

Yamaha-SS475-Ckey.jpg


If I take the current issue as an example, above is an image of my soprano and the same adjustment screws are 1) bigger, 2) resting on a larger flat surface and I guess that alone keeps it from going wrong too easily.

I play tested this Keilwerth, to ensure my fix held on and I must say that I'm not at all convinced. Of course, I'm not an expert and its certainly normal at my level of expertise to feel uncomfortable with another horn, but the bottom line is I'm not tempted to switch at all.
 
Keilwerth went through a bad patch for a while. I had to level every tonehole on my SX90II and replace the pads. Once done it sounded and worked great.
 
What type of glue did you use? I have almost exclusively gone to gap filling superglue for corks, felts, etc. It can be a real challenge getting the piece of cork or cork like material into these tight places before the glue sets. I am impressed with both the diagnosis of the problem and the repair. That "piggy back" key over the C tonehole is designed to help bring down the pitch of the high C# on the soprano.
 
That "piggy back" key over the C tonehole is designed to help bring down the pitch of the high C# on the soprano.

It took some 'sherlocking' to finally discover when it applied.

As for using super glue, I considered it, but thought regular contact would do the job if I cared to take the time to do it right. Time will tell if it holds or not. The 'client' being a friend, she'll know where to look if it fails again. Then I will probably consider super glue for a sturdier and longer lasting solution. But I don't think I have any right now.
 
This sort of stuff's pretty much par for the course, unfortunately - and Keilwerth aren't the only ones at it.
But it's good to see players poking about in the action and pointing up build issues...because if enough players do it, the manufacturers might just start to take notice.
It's a long shot, I know, but I live in hope.

There's also another potential issue on the Keilwerth. Note the spacing of the two adjustment screws on both horns. Those on the Yamaha are close together...and those on the Keilwerth are much farther apart.
Now look below the adjusting screws to the Auxiliary bar that they act upon. See how short it is on the Yamaha and how much longer it is on the Keilwerth?
Note that small key arm to the right of the left hand adjusting screw on the Keilwerth. This is the support arm for the remainder of the bar that extends out to the second adjusting screw.
An unsupported bar that long is going to flex - and when the action wears it's going to magnify the effect of the free play in the key barrel...so it starts off by being a mediocre design, and then it gets progressively worse over time.

Contrast it with that on the Yamaha, which has a shorter and thicker bar and uses a fairly substantial key arm off the A key to span the distance. This is a mechanism that starts off nice and robust, and that will fare better when the action wears.
 
It took some 'sherlocking' to finally discover when it applied.

As for using super glue, I considered it, but thought regular contact would do the job if I cared to take the time to do it right. Time will tell if it holds or not. The 'client' being a friend, she'll know where to look if it fails again. Then I will probably consider super glue for a sturdier and longer lasting solution. But I don't think I have any right now.

The trouble with regular contact adhesive these days is that it hasn't got any balls.
It used to be that you could slap a dab of Evostik on a piece of cork, slap another dab on a key, put your feet up for a minute or so and then whack the cork down onto the key...and you'd know the only way it'd come off was with a knife.
The modern doesn't have nearly that much sticking power - and I've yet to find anything that even comes close to the performance of my vintage tins of Evostik.

The newer superglues - the 'flexible' gel ones - are, as JBT says, probably the best bet these days.
Personally I still have some reservations about its effectiveness in the long term, and my gut feeling is that I ought to set up a 'friction jig' to do some tests to find out exactly what its strengths and weaknesses are.
If you're going to use it, don't buy the large (5g) bottles but get the little packs of three small tubes. Once opened it'll go off (it gets all stiff and claggy) way before you can use it all...and you'll end up chucking most of it in the bin.
 
What about water based contact cement. 3M make a good one that seems to work well. Takes more than a minute to tack though
 
The contact adhesive for glueing soles on shoes sticks really well. I haven't had any problems with it.
 
I'm a bit sniffy about water-based glues, I've never really had any good results from them. That said, it's been years since I tried any - so maybe they've got better.

The shoe glue sounds interesting - but I was thinking more of the stuff I've seen cobblers use...it seems to be a hot glue rather than something from a tube.

Can you guys give me some brand names? If I'm going to be testing superglue I might as well test a few other types of glue at the same time.
 
Not sure if German brand names will help. Guys round here are using a contact adhesive, not a hot glue. But I'll try and get some.
 
I'm a bit sniffy about water-based glues, I've never really had any good results from them. That said, it's been years since I tried any - so maybe they've got better.

The shoe glue sounds interesting - but I was thinking more of the stuff I've seen cobblers use...it seems to be a hot glue rather than something from a tube.

Can you guys give me some brand names? If I'm going to be testing superglue I might as well test a few other types of glue at the same time.

Stephen,

I was perusing the old entries in this forum and saw that no one had provided a brand name for shoe glue. This stuff is widely available in the US. Don't know about your neck of the woods.

Shoe GOO®

Love your saxophone manual, BTW.

Patrick
 
Shoe goo is pretty sticky stuff but full of VOC's if that is a consideration.

3M water based contact cement. I have used it to glue laminates to kitchen counters and have not had any lifting problems even in damp areas.
 

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