B Key Inoperable !!

[Petlyn]

Hello and thanks for the interest.

I thought I would buy my Grandson an Alto as he seems to like me playing my Keilwerth. So I bought him a Vito (Japan) quite a nice clean instrument in reasonable condition. It had been 'overhauled' new pads and corks. BUT the B key is down (not STUCK as sometimes it may if you've just finished a toffee bar half way thro' a gig) but refuses to lift using your left pinky (the key is floppy).

Looking at the photo the lever to the left on an angle is the lever to operate the pad but it is UNDER the mechanism to operate the B key and maybe should be ON TOP of the mechanism. However if you have the angled lever on top of the B mechanism ALL the left pinky keys lock together and that's it you have to release it to regain the pinky keys again. If you manually LIFT the sloping lever the pad opens naturally. This is probably as 'clear as mud' to you, wish it was easier to describe.

You may say ship it back from whence it came ugh! wish I could as the seller has 'gone to ground' and it came from a guy in Dorset a LONG WAY from the Wirral, unfortunately the guy on the Wirral we used for repair has retired so I'm stuck up the river without a paddle.

Grateful for your thoughts guys. Thanks.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I can't see anything wrong with the actual layout of the bell key table - everything looks to be where it's supposed to be...but:
The G# touchpiece shouldn't be resting in that position (down) of it its own accord - and my guess is that its spring has come out of the cradle.

The Bb touchpiece looks to be too close to the B - looks to me like the roller is touching the B key touchpiece. That's a simple fix, just bend the Bb touchpiece back sightly.

You say the B is floppy...which is a bit different to 'stuck down'. If it's just floppy then the spring has come of the key's cradle (like the G#). If it really is stuck, as in hard to move in any direction, then it might be the problem described above.

I think you're going to have other problems with this horn, as there appears to be no cork/felt on the connection between the G# lever key and the cup key (where that horizontal bar is, on the left).

 

[Petlyn]

I can't see anything wrong with the actual layout of the bell key table - everything looks to be where it's supposed to be...but:
The G# touchpiece shouldn't be resting in that position (down) of it its own accord - and my guess is that its spring has come out of the cradle.

The Bb touchpiece looks to be too close to the B - looks to me like the roller is touching the B key touchpiece. That's a simple fix, just bend the Bb touchpiece back sightly.

You say the B is floppy...which is a bit different to 'stuck down'. If it's just floppy then the spring has come of the key's cradle (like the G#). If it really is stuck, as in hard to move in any direction, then it might be the problem described above.

I think you're going to have other problems with this horn, as there appears to be no cork/felt on the connection between the G# lever key and the cup key (where that horizontal bar is, on the left).

Thank you Stephen an EXCELLENT observation I've just got to decipher your fault description and repair, that'll probably take the best part of 24/48 hours but well written and described. The only thing I can see is as you suggest the metal to metal contact requiring cork, the rest will be as I observe, I cannot see where there is a spring bounced but as you say there must be.

This is totally different from my Keilwerth so it's gonna be 'a slow learning curve'.

Thanks again Stephen. Kind regards Peter

 

[turf3]

Springs might be down at the other end of the rods near the key cups depending on the design.

 

[Petlyn]

Springs might be down at the other end of the rods near the key cups depending on the design.

Thank you Turf3 I was aware of that, have been playing over 50 years but this fault has really got me beaten so far anyway. It seems the guy has reassembled it incorrectly after changing the pads but can't find 'what has gone wrong'.

There is a video on YouTube for overhauling the Vito but this model is totally different Sods Law eh?

 

[turf3]

Saxes marked "Vito" have come from three or four different manufacturers. If you can figure out what you've got there - looks like maybe a Yamaha Vito - then you may find some more info.

You also might have a spring on the wrong side of its "cradle" - in the pic it looks like the hinge tubes have little posts rather than traditional cradles, and it wouldn't be hard to put the spring on the wrong side of the post.

 

[Stephen Howard]

It's a Yamaha - a YAS21, to be specific.

As regards the spring cradles, the G# lever one will be cut into the key arm, the low B and Bb will have posts descending from the key barrels. Here's a shot of where they are and what they look like:

I can't how someone could have put the bell key table on incorrectly - there's really no other way it can go on. With all those twisty-turny key arms, it all has to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Unless something's gone very wrong indeed.

Maybe take a photo looking top-down on the bell key table?

 

[Petlyn]

Saxes marked "Vito" have come from three or four different manufacturers. If you can figure out what you've got there - looks like maybe a Yamaha Vito - then you may find some more info.

You also might have a spring on the wrong side of its "cradle" - in the pic it looks like the hinge tubes have little posts rather than traditional cradles, and it wouldn't be hard to put the spring on the wrong side of the post.

Thanks yes you are correct in your assumption, it is from the Yamaha stables looks a very nice instrument too just wish it played, unfortunately when I bought it the guy assured me it had had a complete overhaul Pads, Corks, and Springs where required (SH noted a cork missing) and it was sent directly to my Grandson as his birthday present I did not get a chance to try it, when returning to school his music tutor told him the sax had a problem hence it arriving on the other side of the Pennines and Grandad trying to fix it for him.

The springs 'appear' to be seated correctly but simply going by present spring 'tension' not knowledge of this particular problem so I have tried reversing the spring and no go.

Looks as if I'm going to have to take it to Liverpool but at least they can check the complete instrument, I'll look forward to playing the Alto again when I pick it up as many years have 'flown' by since playing an Alto, I am retired Tenor and Bari Pro Dance Bands and Orchestral, oh happy days.

Cheers and thanks Pete

 

[Petlyn]

It's a Yamaha - a YAS21, to be specific.

As regards the spring cradles, the G# lever one will be cut into the key arm, the low B and Bb will have posts descending from the key barrels. Here's a shot of where they are and what they look like:

View attachment 17725

I can't how someone could have put the bell key table on incorrectly - there's really no other way it can go on. With all those twisty-turny key arms, it all has to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Unless something's gone very wrong indeed.

Maybe take a photo looking top-down on the bell key table?

I didn't realise you had also sent this photo THANKS well my springs 'appear' to be as the photo SO.

I will attach a few pics for you to browse and thank you for your kindness.

Pete

It's a Yamaha - a YAS21, to be specific.

As regards the spring cradles, the G# lever one will be cut into the key arm, the low B and Bb will have posts descending from the key barrels. Here's a shot of where they are and what they look like:

View attachment 17725

I can't how someone could have put the bell key table on incorrectly - there's really no other way it can go on. With all those twisty-turny key arms, it all has to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Unless something's gone very wrong indeed.

Maybe take a photo looking top-down on the bell key table?

Hi again and thank you.

I wasn't sure exactly what to show you picture wise so I've gone mad and click happy.

 

[Petlyn]

It's a Yamaha - a YAS21, to be specific.

As regards the spring cradles, the G# lever one will be cut into the key arm, the low B and Bb will have posts descending from the key barrels. Here's a shot of where they are and what they look like:

View attachment 17725

I can't how someone could have put the bell key table on incorrectly - there's really no other way it can go on. With all those twisty-turny key arms, it all has to fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. Unless something's gone very wrong indeed.

Maybe take a photo looking top-down on the bell key table?

I didn't realise it was you who sent the picture, thank you Stephen. Think I may have gone 'overboard' with my pics but not sure which would have been the best shots so took 'Overall' pics.

Thanks again. P..

 

[Stephen Howard]

The low Bb and B spring are sitting correctly in their cradles...so that's not going to be the problem (assuming they're set strong enough.

The shot I really want is something like this:

...though perhaps looking more from a straight down viewpoint.

 

[Petlyn]

The low Bb and B spring are sitting correctly in their cradles...so that's not going to be the problem (assuming they're set strong enough.

The shot I really want is something like this:

View attachment 17731

...though perhaps looking more from a straight down viewpoint.

Hi again Stephen thank you. OK wonder if these pics are clear enough and will help with the diagnosis of the problem. Sorry to burden you with this one but I suppose it helps to keep the grey matter grey.

Thank you again Pete

 

[Stephen Howard]

OK, so the shots show that none of the spatulas (touchpieces) are colliding - which is a good sign.
The G# spatula is obviously unsprung - but that's an easy fix, and as it stands it won't affect the movement of the rest of the table.

The first shot seems to show the Bb spatula depressed (but not in the last shot). Not sure what that means, might be nothing of consequence at the moment.

I'm thinking that maybe we're dealing with something binding. The most likely scenario is that one of the point screws has been done up too tight. They're of the shoulderless (or headless, if you like) variety - which means you can keep on screwing them into the pillar until the key locks up.
The other possibility is that one or other of the keys is colliding with something down at the other end. Typically this would be either the B or the Bb hitting the key guard.

So we need to do some diagnostics.

Press and hold the B key down. Now press and release the Bb key. Does it fall and rise normally?
Press the C# key down and release it. Does it too fall and rise normally?
Press the Bb key down (it'll bring the B down with it). What happens?
Is there a clanking noise at any point, or a sort of grating?

It's likely to be something daft - which could be sorted out in five seconds in the hands of a repairer - but without being able to see and feel what's going on, it's going to take a bit longer. But I think we can get it sussed.

 

[Petlyn]

It's likely to be something daft - which could be sorted out in five seconds in the hands of a repairer - but without being able to see and feel what's going on, it's going to take a bit longer. But I think we can get it sussed.

What a scenario Stephen. For a start I confused the title and guessed at the B key this is obviously wrong and should have been the G# key being the problem ugh ! the sax was in it's case when I wrote it, thought I was being clever haha

Press and hold the B key down. Now press and release the Bb key. Does it fall and rise normally? Normal
Press the C# key down and release it. Does it too fall and rise normally? Normal
Press the Bb key down (it'll bring the B down with it). What happens? Yes both pads operate
Is there a clanking noise at any point, or a sort of grating? Absolutely not just the lovely pad closing tones.

Yes think it may be time for a trip to Liverpool to the menders, that's if their operating with the Lockdown, fingers crossed.

Thank you so much for your patience it's been very good of you. Pete

 

[Stephen Howard]

What a scenario Stephen. For a start I confused the title and guessed at the B key this is obviously wrong and should have been the G# key being the problem ugh ! the sax was in it's case when I wrote it, thought I was being clever haha

Aha! That's a very simply fix.

Here's the setup. That arrow point to the spring cradle. The tip of the spring (being held by a springhook, ready to pull it backwards) has to sit in this cradle.
You horn has a slightly different arrangement in that the cradle is cut into the arm of the key (see the first shot I posted in the thread - the left hand arrow points to it) - but the fix is the same.
You'll see a spring projecting out of the pillar on the left - and the tip of the spring will probably be sitting just below the cradle and (hopefully) a little way back. You need to pull the spring back towards you and lift it up so that it slips into the cradle.
Now, it's easy to do if you have a springhook, but if not you may be able to come at it from the other side and push it into place with something like a pencil.
Might take a bit of jiggling, and you might need to use something like a screwdriver to lever it into place - but it should go.

However, the fact that it came out in the first place indicates that something's not quite right with how the spring is set, so it may pop out again at some point - unless it was due to a knock it transit, which can sometimes pop springs off their cradles.

 

[Petlyn]

Well Stephen I think it's time to put this problem to bed and take it to the menders as I have gone through EVERY spring and loosened every screw should any be over tightened but alas no change. I have taken a further picture which clearly shows the spring in its proper groove and I cannot see any spring which is not either placed or loose.

So to the menders I go but before I do, thank you for your kind assistance and thoughts on the problem its been good to have your obvious expert knowledge

 

[Stephen Howard]

I guess the only logical answer is that the spring is too weak - and looking at its profile (with that forward-facing curve), I suspect that's the case.
It can still be fixed (if you have the patience). All you need do is pop the spring out of its cradle, then push it forwards underneath the bell key table. This will strengthen it. Then pull (or push) it back into place.

However, you did say something about having to manually lift a key. It wasn't clear which one, but I guess you meant the G# key?
If that's the case it could be that the G# touchpiece key is binding on its rod screw...and that's a bigger issue to deal with.
If the key moves up and down quite freely, then it surely has to be the spring.

 

[Petlyn]

I guess the only logical answer is that the spring is too weak - and looking at its profile (with that forward-facing curve), I suspect that's the case.
It can still be fixed (if you have the patience). All you need do is pop the spring out of its cradle, then push it forwards underneath the bell key table. This will strengthen it. Then pull (or push) it back into place.

However, you did say something about having to manually lift a key. It wasn't clear which one, but I guess you meant the G# key?
If that's the case it could be that the G# touchpiece key is binding on its rod screw...and that's a bigger issue to deal with.
If the key moves up and down quite freely, then it surely has to be the spring.

Hi Well I think I have tried EVERYTHING now it's looking as if it is the spring, although very heavy looking it's like an elastic band very sloppy which is quite surprising as it looks so thick but I cannot get it to really tension at all.

I'll give the repairers a ring in the morning and see if, although the shop is closed they may still be working internally, obviously I will keep you posted and thanks again for your help.

P...

 

[Stephen Howard]

Ah well, at least you tried all the options.
The stainless steel springs fitted to these horns are incredibly resilient, but they'll only tolerate so much - and from the profile of that spring it might be rather past its best.

 

[turf3]

That spring does not look right to me. The bend is weird. I would not be surprised if it's flipped round in the post and can't supply tension. Generally a properly installed and tensioned spring in place will look more or less straight.

The end of the spring that goes into the post is flattened to keep it from rotating in the post. Then it's "driven" into the post and held there by interference of the flattened part with the hole in the post. If the spring comes somewhat loose and is operated, the hole in the post can get wallowed out and the spring is no longer held tightly.

All the above said, this is a minor problem for a repair person to sort out. The horn will be fine, it's a good choice.