Jazzers: Born or Made

[Bobby G]

Ken wrote:

Bob Green wrote:
I imagine the sound of hands going up a la a classful of 8-year-olds as a response to Ken's last question.

"Me, Miss!!"

Cheers, Bob

For what reason Bob ???

In answer to Ken Aust's question, which was "who wants to improvise on 'Stranger on the Shore'?"

Cheers, Bob

 

[ken]

spike wrote: I think the question should have been Musos: Born or Made?

Now that is more like it Spike...

and the correct answer is: born . . .

but I disagree with you too. 🙁

I once had a sister-in-law, lovely girl, didn't have an ounce of musical ability or apptitude (whatever they might be). She had a bad motorcycle accident and out of neccesity, desire, call it what you like, she went to uni and learned to play the fiddle (and guiter on the side) to an absolute amazing degree. She left uni with all the qualifications you could think of and performed at many grand venues and did so with a passion and feeling that could not be associated with any kind of 'mechanical' learning.

Sadly I lost my sister-in-law as a condition of the accident.

Said with due deference to Tengu having made the same point in previous posts.

 

[oliver_bentley]

errr - I'm not sure who I agree weith after all that. As for nature, well its not just musical ability but things like determination (perhaps as big if not bigger than natural "god given" talent?) natural, or a product of our environment?

Secondly, I have absolutely zero musical background in the family, no one I know that I'm related to plays, other than my elder brother who plays guitar (by his own admission badly, and does play mmuch anymore). We were given music lessons from a relatively early age as my mum thought she should try and give us chances she never had. (she want to play flute, and when I can afford fully intend to buy her one - this forums taught me its never too late) My brother didnt really take to music where as I did, yet we both had effectively the same environment growing up, yet also the same parents etc, so does that mean my musical ability is natural or not?*

Hmmm - I've never thought of that before writing this post. :erm:

From an early age my parents could tell that I had a good sense of rhythm etc over my bro, but perhaps I was just more determined, enjoyed music more than my bro, as he didnt practice much etc. Its a tricky one... any thoughts?

My brother takes much more naturally to bussiness (prob why he see's no sense in being a pauper musician) so guess everyones naturally taken to something, its just finding what it is thats the key.

*btw not in anyway suggestin I have amazingly great talents here or anthing. lol.

 

[Bobby G]

I think that's a great story Ken, it's almost as if the accident brought out your sister-in-law's latent musicality. While I wouldn't go so far as to base an entire theory on where musical ability 'comes from' on one bit of anecdotal evidence, the one thing it does show is that the human mind is mostly a mystery and can behave unpredictably at times of stress.

What I'm saying is that no-one is born a blank canvas and that events are interpreted by, and have a modifying effect on, your nature. This is just a theory, and could explain how someone could 'change' after a traumatic event.

Lastly, wherever musical ability of any type comes from, be it singing, composing, playing etc, whether it's nurture or nature or both, I say let's just celebrate the fact that it happens!

Cheers, Bob

 

[ken]

Bob, as I mentioned, my sister-in-law did/achieved what she did out of desire, not due to any traumatic transition, but I do agree with you, neither would I base my views purely on one piece of anecdotal evidence.

General research indicates a child's (from a VERY early age) "environment" is the most likely deciding factor of a person having musical ability at a later age. God given talents, parents and family musical skills are of less importance than the child just being in a musical environment and receiving encouragement, this imho is the prime forming factor.

This you can google and whilst you will no doubt find many conflicts, I believe you will also find it the most educated accepted view. But then again, this is only an exchange of views and opinions as originally suggested by the original post and topic, not an excersize to stuff anything down anyones throats, so I am always happy to be corrected and/or convinced.

I can tell you one thing, my mum certainly wasn't playing sax in the maternity ward when I was born! :cry:

 

[tengu01]

Bob Green wrote:

Lastly, wherever musical ability of any type comes from, be it singing, composing, playing etc, whether it's nurture or nature or both, I say let's just celebrate the fact that it happens!

Cheers, Bob

Hear hear 🙂

 

[ken]

tengu01 wrote:

Bob Green wrote:

Lastly, wherever musical ability of any type comes from, be it singing, composing, playing etc, whether it's nurture or nature or both, I say let's just celebrate the fact that it happens!

Cheers, Bob

I'll ditto that too Bob, Tengu, even if it's only jazz.

Hear hear 🙂

 

[oliver_bentley]

Ken wrote:
General research indicates a child's (from a VERY early age) "environment" is the most likely deciding factor of a person having musical ability at a later age. God given talents, parents and family musical skills are of less importance than the child just being in a musical environment and receiving encouragement, this imho is the prime forming factor.

I'm not expecting a definite answer here (or indeed any answer as may be the case) But if me and my brother are made up of the same genetic material, and lived in virtually the same environment, no big differences at all, same house, area, school, teachers, parents, clothes (damned hand me downs 😡 ) what makes one of us musical and not the other (and I spose every other difference too?)

All I can think of is thatdifferent characters are born and then their environment also plays its part. Hmm - this is intriguing me :erm: Sod music uni, i'm off to study genetics. (which is a bummer as i got a thing through for an audition at leeds at the end of the month this morn - sooner than i'd hoped :S)

In the end I gotta agree - who cares where it comes from and why, just enjoy it.

 

[ken]

Oliver,

My understanding (google to check) is that these things are very subtle and at a very early age.

Are you and your brother twins for example. Was there a different musical environment in the home during each of your early months. etc etc.

Perhaps your mum was listening to Radio Caroline when you were young and Terry Wogan during your brothers time... that would put him off music :erm:

Don't know Oliver, but yes interesting.

 

[Bobby G]

Don't study genetics Oli, it can only lead to the weeding-out of so-called 'undesirable' traits (see study on putative 'gay gene') which will lead to the creation of the ruling ?bermensch class, the servile low-IQ class, and (big leap here) the banning of all music except martial music.

Strike your blow for the individual and freedom of expression. It is your *duty* to go for your audition in Leeds.

Good luck, and remember the destiny of us all could be on your shoulders.

Cap'n Bob

 

[rebecca]

How 'bout this?
A jazzer is anyone who plays better than you.
Regardless of nature/nurture.
Or perhaps, the one in ten refers to the current company.
There are instances when I'm a jazzer and there are times when I'm not, depends on the circumstance.

Plus, I think at the end of the day, anyone willing to put effort into the pursuit of such endeavors has some internal need for it. And in that sense perhaps that need categorizes you as a jazzer-kind of like a mental afflicition-but one you're happy to have.

 

[oliver_bentley]

Bob Green wrote:

Strike your blow for the individual and freedom of expression. It is your *duty* to go for your audition in Leeds.

Good luck, and remember the destiny of us all could be on your shoulders.

Cap'n Bob

:laugh: Ha ha, your all doomed! :laugh:
But thanks anyway, I'll see what I can do, seen as its in the human intrest and all.

 

[ken_aust]

A jazzer is a person who can play an improvised solo on a given chord progression. The person who is playing this solo must be able to hear and anticipate the chord changes as they happen. Jazzers have the ability to hear these changes, non Jazzers do not.

Playing loads of notes per bar is not the criteria for good jazz playing, hearing and playing the changes are.


Thats my tuppence halfpenny worth anyway.

Slan,

Ken Aust

 

[lee_]

A jazzer is a person who can play an improvised solo on a given chord progression. The person who is playing this solo must be able to hear and anticipate the chord changes as they happen. Jazzers have the ability to hear these changes, non Jazzers do not.

Sorry, but that rings a bit dogmatic.

Would a true "jazzer" be able to "hear" the impending chords the first time he heard the tune? I think not. More likely, he'd practice a bit before said performance and learn the chord sequence through whatever methodology he employs in the woodshed. Or at least pickup the chords as the song cycled prior to his break.

Is this any different than a budding honkytonk player learning to blow over (anticipate) the chords to "Mustang Sally"?

If you travel around and check out working jazz dudes, it becomes very apparent that one of the main things they've got going for them is lots of experience. Same is true for working blues players, rockers, and on and on.

Jazz is just a type of music, albeit one apparently painted with a gilded brush.

My opinion: If you say you're a musician, you're a musician, but not necessarily a very good one. You can get better by practicing, and can get galvanized by playing gigs. Still, you should know there will always be a ton of players way better than you are.

Therefore, it's all good.

 

[rob_br]

Plain and simply I believe that people that pop out into the world and immeadiatly transcribe the 1812 or Giant steps etc. have just been born with a very musically aware ear.

However anyone can develop the ability to play anything. I know a guy who went to university about ten years ago who absolutley sucked, no joke. But he worked at it and just yesterday finished up a record deal that is going to be entered into the junos.

It's the ones like Thelonius monk and Coltrane that are the revolutionaries of music. It's their ideas and variations that have made them genius, Miles included.

Even though some of Thelonius's harmonics are quite questionable...

The more time your spend thinking if you have the "musical gene" the less time you have for getting the musical skill.


- Rob