Mouthpieces Is my mouthpiece tip opening too big?

[tengu01]

This may appear like a bit of a silly question, but I moved from an Otto Link STM 6* to a Geoff Lawton 8*B which is a decent sized jump.

Now I don't have any problems with getting a beautiful sound out of this mouthpiece, but I find it a little difficult to control for the lower notes i.e. getting them to speak quietly without a big BLAT sound to get the note started >.<

The other problem is if I start to use soft reeds (as recommended for mouthpieces with larger tips than you're used to), the tone thins out and gets trembly.

Question: Are these signs of a mouthpiece with a tip that's too big, or that I need to work on my embouchure to get this bad boy under control?

All comments, wisecracks and similar experiences welcome

 

[spike]

Hi tengu, if it's only the low notes that are bothering you then it's just down to practice and patience, I presume we're talking tenor here, I'm playing an 8*BB special at the moment and have finally made the switch from my other mpc after trying for "two years"! and my other mpc was a tic more open. Just give it time, your control will develop and adjust itself. You probably need anything from three weeks to three months to get used to a new piece.

 

[tengu01]

Cheers Spike,

I've been playing this one for at around a month or so and was starting to get a little concerned that I had literally bitten off more than I could chew.

They are good mouthpieces aren't they?

Tengu

 

[Pete Thomas]

At 12:38:30 PM 07/07/06, tengu01 wrote:
Question: Are these signs of a mouthpiece with a tip that's too big, or that I need to work on my embouchure to get this bad boy under control?

There are two answers to this question, it's totally up to you which you choose!

I prefer the wide tip and soft reed, with practice you can get the tone you want from a soft reed. For me the wide tip opening gives me more versatility with bending notes etc, but some people don't need/want that

 

[tengu01]

Am actually quite interested in how you got to that.

How did you get the soft reeds to behave when it comes to the notes at the high end of the horn? I always found that they tended to thin out dramatically I was playing a reed that was on the softer side.

 

[spike]

Just for interest I'm playing a three rico royal these days, it gives me all the versatility that I need for my style of playing on a .115 (8*) opening. Apart from that as above your control will develop with time. Lawtons are nice pieces, good full strong tone and I'm finding the altissimo a whole lot easier than my old KC guardala. You haven't mentioned what strength of what reed you're using, I'd guess that a 2.5 to 3 should be what your aiming at depending on how much you play.

 

[lee_]

You also might try adjusting one of your current reeds to open up the bottom end.

Here's the Larry Teal Adjustment Guide

 

[Pete Thomas]

At 1:53:56 PM 07/07/06, tengu01 wrote:
Am actually quite interested in how you got to that.

How did you get the soft reeds to behave when it comes to the notes at the high end of the horn? I always found that they tended to thin out dramatically I was playing a reed that was on the softer side.

Maybe I just have a thin sound at the top! I don't really know to be honest, but I mostly use growls and vibrato to effect my sound quite a lot, maybe that's how. If I was playing more straight ahead jazz perhaps I'd have to use harder reeds. However one of my favourite players, gato Barbieri, uses extremely soft reeds I believe and he has a great top range.

 

[rhysonsax]

I've got Lawtons on all my saxes (SATB), although I also play Pillingers for warmer sound where I don't have to cut through.

On baritone I was playing my teacher's Lawton, an 8*B. It had a great sound but I kept running out of air on long low notes. When Geoff Lawton died I knew I had to but my own piece and went for a 7*B. That needed a lot less puff and still has the sound I wanted.

A couple of other things to remember:

1. A high baffle piece will be easier to blow for the same tip opening. So in Lawtons, 8*BB will be easier than 8*B which will be easier than 8* (plain). I suppose there is less air to be pushed into the gap between the reed and the baffle.
2. As well as the tip opening, the length of the lay is also important. I suppose that with a longer lay wou have to put less "bend" into the reed, so you don't have to work quite as hard for the same opening as for a short lay.

If you decide that the 8*B is too much, you could get it refaced to make it an easier blow. Ed Pillinger did this for me on a Lawton, but he (and many other people) won't touch stainless steel pieces as they are so tough and he doesn't do replating, so I'm now left with bare metal where he worked it.

Good luck

Rhys

 

[spike]

Hello Rhys,
very interesting things to remember (1.)
I've been wondering for ages now why I need more air on my 8*BB than on my DG KC when the DG has a few thou' more opening. Sound of penny dropping - I need to push more air through because the baffle is lower even though the opening is slightly less.
Apart from that welcome to the club and thanks for the info.

@Lee - thanks for the Link to the Teal Guide - I think I've been calling sixes fives and fives sixes for the last forty years. Where's the search and replace button? That's what you get for being autodidactic sometimes.

 

[tengu01]

At the moment, I am using vandoren java 2.5's on the Lawton. From the sounds of things, it looks like I am going to have to do a bit more work.

Cheers guys.

Pete, I am sure your tone at the top isn't thin, I was just wondering whether at the point you decided to use softer reeds, you had to work on maintaining a strong tone at the top of whether it just worked off the bat.

Just because I find it this way now doesn't necessarily mean it will stay that way, I just haven't stuck with it long enough to find out.

 

[oliver_bentley]

I play an alto (yammi62) with a Vandoren V16 9lay. V Big. Had it a few months now and getting there with tone and things, but I find I'm always having to pull off quite a bit. I used to have a real bite embouchure, and, while now this is mostly corrected, I think I do still bite a bit, which may be why. Any other ideas anyone?

Anyway, I was told to use a sorter reed at first (was on 3Vandoren ZZ reeds (equivelent of 21/2 norm vandoren) so went down a size. I found that when I went back up to a harder reed I found it easier on the low notes by far.

Has your sax been recently serviced? Sometimes some mouchpieces blow over slight leaks, while others really dont cope with them, this may be why it doesnt like the low end.

 

[tengu01]

My sax hasn't been serviced for a while, I'll admit.

However, I don't have any problems with the low notes if I slur into them. The problem only comes in when I want a start on a low note with a clean attack at the volume of my choosing instead of at a full blast honk.

A few days ago, I started with long, low note exercises and by the end of it, I was controlling things a lot better. It seems to be a practice thing.

Thanks for all the advice people

 

[Bobby G]

I seem to have a similar low note problem to you Tengu. Ok if I want to go flat out, but not starting too well playing more quietly. Once I get into that mellow subtone-y sound it's a lot easier.

Perhaps I need to do some proper practising instead of playing along to Aebersolds and going to jams!

 

[tengu01]

Hey Bob

I only noticed it when trying to practice some etudes which required a slightly more precise approach to tonguing, attack and dynamics. Like yourself, I didn't notice it in jam sessions or when freewheeling along with Mr Aebersold.

Bring on the long notes and tonguing practice

🙁

 

[ken_aust]

tengu01 wrote:
This may appear like a bit of a silly question, but I moved from an Otto Link STM 6* to a Geoff Lawton 8*B which is a decent sized jump.

Now I don't have any problems with getting a beautiful sound out of this mouthpiece, but I find it a little difficult to control for the lower notes i.e. getting them to speak quietly without a big BLAT sound to get the note started >.<

The other problem is if I start to use soft reeds (as recommended for mouthpieces with larger tips than you're used to), the tone thins out and gets trembly.

Question: Are these signs of a mouthpiece with a tip that's too big, or that I need to work on my embouchure to get this bad boy under control?

All comments, wisecracks and similar experiences welcome

tengu 01
your length of lay has to be a minimum of 22 millimetres
in order to get the bottom notes.
to measure it fit a reed to the mouthpiece in the normal manner then slide a thin piece of paper into the opening until it stops . With a PIN, mark the paper at the mouthpiece tip then measure it.

 

[lee_]

That sounds very scientific. Are you saying you have to have 22 mm of unsupported reed length? Does that somehow correspond to the freqency of the lower notes? Would that be for tenor, alto or both?

 

[ken_aust]

Hi Lee,
The length of lay is from the tip of the reed ( holding the mouthpiece horizontally ) back along the mouthpiece to where you cannot see daylight. What I am saying is that if that length is LESS than 22 millimetres you are going to have difficulty getting the bottom notes on the horn. I am referring to Tenor.

Lee wrote:
That sounds very scientific. Are you saying you have to have 22 mm of unsupported reed length? Does that somehow correspond to the freqency of the lower notes? Would that be for tenor, alto or both?