Is going to school to learn jazz and improvisation good or bad?

[onecat]

What are the pros and cons of going to school in terms of how the education will have an affect on one's style and originality? Thanks.

 

[Linky Lee]

I'm going to university next academic year to study 'music' pretty much from a classical point of view in terms of performance both on flute and saxophone.

I'm currently studying music and music technology at A2, my jazz seems to get better, It's a relief from the heavy load of classical music 😛

I think getting an education in music is great, you meant many musicians, are made to listen and play wide varying styles of music, get lots of performances under your belt, have a quality tutor and get to spend lots of time practising. It's a brilliant way to spend your educated life I think. Then you can go and hit the 'scene' and you are going to have a solid footing.

I can't see it cramping your style, but it certainly isn't necessary!

 

[Bobby G]

There is a story of a young jazz saxophonist, must be back in the 50's, who was accepted into one of the big, well-renowned music colleges in the USA. He rushed into a studio to tell the good news to Thelonius Monk. Monk's response, apparently, was 'I hope you don't lose it there, man'.

In my usual ace on the fence, I can use phrases like horses for courses or swings and roundabouts when it comes to getting a musical education (although education is never a bad thing). I'd say if you have any originality, going to uni isn't going to remove it, in fact I suspect more now than in the past originality would be encouraged or nurtured, particularly as I imagine teaching methods are less rigid than they used to be.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Simon]

I think the best thing about studying at any school is that you get to shelfishly focus on this one topic 24-7 with a group of like-minded people and you really get a buzz from it! Whether you learn anything - what's the diff? You get to play music and do you own thing.
Simon

Bobby G wrote:
There is a story of a young jazz saxophonist, must be back in the 50's, who was accepted into one of the big, well-renowned music colleges in the USA. He rushed into a studio to tell the good news to Thelonius Monk. Monk's response, apparently, was 'I hope you don't lose it there, man'.

In my usual ace on the fence, I can use phrases like horses for courses or swings and roundabouts when it comes to getting a musical education (although education is never a bad thing). I'd say if you have any originality, going to uni isn't going to remove it, in fact I suspect more now than in the past originality would be encouraged or nurtured, particularly as I imagine teaching methods are less rigid than they used to be.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Greywolf]

simon wrote:
I think the best thing about studying at any school is that you get to shelfishly focus on this one topic 24-7 with a group of li

My god it's news to me that cockles amd mussels play sax, even if they are alive, alive oh.

As someone who never studied music formally I would without doubt say get the education. The very fact that you are aware that it might stifle creativity suggest that it won't happen, and as Bob says I think any school worth its salt these days would encourage you.

These things are a contract. You'll only be stifled if you agree to be stifled.

 

[Bobby G]

Greywolf wrote:

simon wrote:
I think the best thing about studying at any school is that you get to shelfishly focus on this one topic 24-7 with a group of li

My god it's news to me that cockles amd mussels play sax, even if they are alive, alive oh.

Have you never heard of the Mussel Shoals horn section? Or the Laurence Whelk orchestra?

Cheers, Bob

 

[Simon]

Big Grey - nah, bit of a damp squid that one. Oy-stay away from jazz school if you're against stifling, harpooning or even drift net fishing.

Simon

--------
Mean Fishmongers Quarterly - "We all be sell fish"

Bobby G wrote:

Greywolf wrote:

simon wrote:
I think the best thing about studying at any school is that you get to shelfishly focus on this one topic 24-7 with a group of li

My god it's news to me that cockles amd mussels play sax, even if they are alive, alive oh.

Have you never heard of the Mussel Shoals horn section? Or the Laurence Whelk orchestra?

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

Back onto the subject again, I think any form of formal education is good as long as you apply yourself to it and approach it with the right attitude and a plan.

What are your goals? What do you want to achieve with this specific knowledge you will gain?

Take this as a hypothetical situation.

Say you go to a music college and they spend all their time drilling you with scales and exercises etc. Though all you want to do is get more experience under your belt playing and better your musical understanding that way. It's probably not the best way to get that done. It will force you to practise the technical side of things and improve your control, tone everything like that etc. Brilliant, but you haven't come any closer to your goal you set yourself. This is where you need to apply yourself. Let the college handle the technical and exercises, then in your free time and practise etc, focus on working towards your goal. You could do this by joining a group, or jamming along with records etc.

The point is, whatever you get taught at a music college whether it specific to your goals and aims will be beneficial to you and make you a more rounded musician not just a saxophonist.

I have a weird view in that you should probably go to a college to study the aspects that you don't particularly like. It is a resource for yourself, so if you can't stand doing theory and you boycott it in your practise because of that you're missing out on a lot of things. The college is there for you to help you, so let it work on your weak points not your assets creating larger divisions between areas of study within music.
The college will force you to spend a decent amount of time per week on this aspect and the tutors will devote all their time and effort into making it successful, as that is their job once you're in the college, they don't want people to fail, it makes them look bad and they're a business after all.

I believe you would come out a well balanced and rounded musician, which I believe is essential. You have to know why (theory), know how to apply (playing) and be able (technical, physical) to be the best you can as a musician.

This is why I chose to go to Sussex university to study music over my other 5 applications. The course was the most varied, rounded and flexible. Perfect for a musician who wants a solid grounding in all respects of musicianship. I'll tailor the course to my requirements as I go along and therefore don't have to follow a set path I chose for myself 3 for years in advance which might not be the best for me when I eventually come to do it.

Hope you can find some info in their that will apply to yourself and aid you in making a decision.

 

[chrisshaw]

After, bypass or outside university, when music pays the bills, if you suffer fools (teacher tailor soldier spy) or your ego fools you: your direct debits will bounce and your wine tastes like vinegar.

 

[mfox]

there are good and bad things to be said for music education..
good and bad may be to extremes a word but here is my view..

education is something to be grasped and not squandered, if you have the chance, go for it, don't think twice..

my music education is had the weekly music lessons in school, played trumpet then double bass for 9 years started also on sax at 16ish.. left school after A levels. did a performing arts course..
I'm a pretty good reader. and due to the performing arts was pushed in the direction of free expression and improvisation..
my position now is i can play pretty well, i know my limitations and strengths. my improvisation is fine..

my wife on the other hand, has studied from a very early age. a natural musician. went through the grade system, went to the RNCM, for her degree. and has played all over the world in many classical orchestras. now she reads like its a first language.. technique is spot on from all the training..but unfortunately her improvisation was taught out of her at university..shes a classical player and isn't bothered about improvisation..

so would i like to have her skills? well yes
would i like to have had the soul taught out of me? no
my wife feels the same way about my strengths.. the way i can adapt to different environments. the way i can mould a small band of jazzers into playing together.
is there a way to have both? I'm sure.. and its down to the tutors as much as the player.. good tutors can make all the difference.

education is opportunity.. take it

 

[Linky Lee]

yeah, it's to go and learn jazz at college not classical music.

Best of both worlds?

there is very minute improvisation in classical music, baroque embellishments and repeated verses in ternary form are about as close as I can think.

I think it's impossible to get 'taught out' of something. You either didn't use it and don't practise and it gradually gets rustier and rustier. Or you never had it before your education and never got taught about it at college so don't have it now. Slightly different to having it 'taught out'.

It's all up to you what you practise and want to get from your playing, if you don't practise something you won't get any better at it and will most likely get worse as time goes by. If you make a point of practising regularly even if it's only once a week it won't go.

I think the key is to find the balance. Going back to the course I chose being varied. It covers everything from 18th century music analysis and composition, to studio and technology work and 21st century music and improvisation. You can't possibly have something taught out of you if you study under a vast varied topics as they all contain different characteristics.

 

[chrisshaw]

I speak fluent french, which I taught myself and lived in France for 7 years. This is probably more of an achievement than many Graduates in french. There was no way I could afford to go back to university to fullfil my desire to speak french
So this can be related to music. So i think it's down to the individual and cirumstance.

But the years I spent in university doing music were among the best years of my life. So my answer is yes.

I as offered a place to do jazz guitar as a first and classical guitar as a second insrument (but i didn't take it) This sort of degree
overcomes the clasical verses improivisation path.

 

[tootintune]

I did a six month course here in NZ. It was a cattle drive in that a bunch of students were herded like cows through various aspects of training. I had only 30minutes per week with the specialist sax teacher Johnny Lipiett and at the end of the course he told me I was tone deaf - thats awesome for ones confidence!. There was way to much material for a beginner to get through and absorb in the 6 month period. There was unnecessary classes in marketing, business and LIfe coaching. There were a bunch of kids who couldn't settle down. Apart from that there were some excellent teachers Roger Sellers )who we didn;t have, Paul Dyne (who we didn;t have), and Roger Fox who ran the big band. For NZ$2.5k it wasn't that good.

My Advice is to research the school and esp it's teachers. Though they might have good teachers will you actually be taught by them? Some people are very good teachers some are just doing a job. Best thing about my course was being in the Big Band and making some nice friends.

 

[Simon]

hey tootin...

that sounds like an auckland jazz school course... check Colin Hemmingsen and the guys at Wellington Con or even Tom Rainey, Simon Lean-Massey et al at CPIT Jazz School (where I was).

It's pretty tough to get great music tuition anywhere (esp in a little place like NZ) BUT contact these guys... if you're serious bout learnin jazz.

keep blowin mate,

simon