Teaching Improvisation....help

[thehunt]

Now OG, who's being a S A?? i'm sure though if we were to take motoring seriously we would learn abit more about our motors? N'est pas.
Anyway back to thread. I also asked this questions months back about improvisation. Would suggest you get a teacher that knows about impro. I agree with both sides though and i think that if you are interested in our craft, that is of Making music, all the info you can get is worthy. So i do err on the side of, learn the rules, nuts and bolts etc, only then can you break those rules. I know it's cliched but unless you are truly gifted it is hard just to play by ear. That is my opinion. As long as you are enjoying what you do, go for it Phil :welldone

 

[Taz]

Mamos,

It was the post prior to yours that started with " why do people get hung up on theory" that was a smidge provocative but certainly not so much so that my heart beat increased by another beat per minute.

ps i wasnt having a dig at Taz either.

this is a great forum where people are freindly and light hearted we all have our own opinions and that makes for a richer world.

Perhaps mouth opened prior to brain engaged 😀 No offence meant. Griff your right, this is a great forum where we can all express an opinion without anyone getting upset by it. My post read a little harsher than it was intended. I'm not trying to sugest that theory is a waste of time, I personaly cant get my head around it, its like a music dyslexia. I was trying to sugest that to implovise you need to feel whats inside you.

I hope this clears up my large (ends with 🙂🙂)

 

[half diminished]

Mamos,

no need to apologise - I was actually agreeing with you - I enjoy the theory side. I did also say that no offence was taken.

It was the post prior to yours that started with " why do people get hung up on theory" that was a smidge provocative but certainly not so much so that my heart beat increased by another beat per minute.

ps i wasnt having a dig at Taz either.

this is a great forum where people are freindly and light hearted we all have our own opinions and that makes for a richer world.

Was anyone digging at me? Wouldn't like to think I upset anyone either.

 

[old git]

Now OG, who's being a S A?? i'm sure though if we were to take motoring seriously we would learn abit more about our motors? N'est pas.
Anyway back to thread. I also asked this questions months back about improvisation. Would suggest you get a teacher that knows about impro. I agree with both sides though and i think that if you are interested in our craft, that is of Making music, all the info you can get is worthy. So i do err on the side of, learn the rules, nuts and bolts etc, only then can you break those rules. I know it's cliched but unless you are truly gifted it is hard just to play by ear. That is my opinion. As long as you are enjoying what you do, go for it Phil :welldone

Must go and dig up those guys who first started playing blues and early jass on instruments that they were not "theoried" on and suggest that they should not have done so. Can anyone tell me what music degree Leadbelly had? He had two life degrees in murder and only knew whether it sounded good or not.
Errol Garner played good but dated piano, from what little I recall, he couldn't read music yet had a fine sense of harmony.
My last post did mention 'stirring', and it did but the whole point about musical theory or indeed any theory, is that it provides a technical explanation of why something sounds or is right if you feel you require that guidance. It is not the alpha and omega of music, just explains what others feel and judge to be good.
Use it as much or as little as wish. It was once said that "The law is for the guidance of wise men and the absolute adherence of fools." and we are all wise men yet fools at the same time. Peace. ;}

 

[losaavedra]

I've watched this thread unfold with some interest, mainly because I seem to be experiencing the opposite problem. It isn't wanting or, more to the point being able to improvise that's bothering me ... but its being able to stick to one tune long enough so as to get to the end of it and have someone else able to figure what it is I'm playing without me trying to tell them! Thus I seem to know just a bar or two of many tunes, after 18 months of abusing my alto ... but a single whole tune has yet to emerge despite there actually being several tunes I'd quite like to be able to play properly all the way through. Usually what happens is that a completely different piece kicks off after the first couple of bars of what I started with ... albeit this 'cuckoo' tune being (thankfully) in the same key and having roughly the same tempo. So, what's the answer to this major lack of discipline? Are there some tablets I should be taking or is there some particular therapy to be sought? Maybe I should join one of the local marching bands as they seem to manage to all play the same tune together without wafting off into something else!! I've tried learning to read the dots and getting my head round the theory bits but the resulting boredom just creates a despondency that, last time I tried it, resulted in my sax being completely ignored for a month. How I envy those with more organised brains (well, sometimes!).

 

[old git]

Do they all use the same chord sequence? It's surprising how many standards appear to be written to the same formula.

 

[losaavedra]

Now that is a very good point. Actually my practice routine often involves winding up Band In A Box, picking stuff randomly from the many potted tune sequences therein, observing the starting chord (thus the probable key) then subconsciously looking to see where the 'significant' changes are coming up. For example, if the tune's in A then I'd be looking for inevitable Ds and inevitable Es of some sort ahead of where I'm currently tootling. An F#m might also appear for certain tunes (cf. the repetitive sequences contained in pieces like "If I had a Hammer", "La Bamba", "Twist and Shout" and many others of same ilk). As a guitar player some bit of me knows that sequences like that occur relatively regardless of starting key so, Eb, Ab, Bb (with maybe a Cm somewhere) has the same pattern. The blues (and a lot of jazz) is generally based around the 'three chord trick' variations that guitar players usually start with. There are different structures used sometimes beyond the ubiquitous '12 bar' form, for example "Hoochie Coochie Man" hangs on the first chord for a few extra bars before using the second and third chords in rounding off a verse. Sometimes the basic chords become 6ths, 7ths, 13ths and whatnot ... but the basic structures eventually become subconsciously predictable and 'improvisation' is thus being able to somehow anticipate what's coming up so that one can add some complimentary melody notes without having to think about them for too long! Its the anticipation that leads to improvisation more than anything else I think. Still, it would be nice if I could get a whole tune out without messing with it ... even a reasonably straightforward tune like "Summertime" quickly morphs into something altogether different once I've started on it!!!

 

[old git]

Discovered this today.
Quoting Buster Bailey, speaking pre 1920, "I was embellishing around the melody at that time (1917-18), I wouldn't have known what they meant by improvisation."

This, from a well known encyclopedia suggests that it all started with embellishments that gradually took over the theme completely.

 

[Phil Edwards]

Discovered this today.
Quoting Buster Bailey, speaking pre 1920, "I was embellishing around the melody at that time (1917-18), I wouldn't have known what they meant by improvisation."

This, from a well known encyclopedia suggests that it all started with embellishments that gradually took over the theme completely.

And that's the way to start when you're new to this. Just add a few passing notes, or play around with the rythym a bit, and develop it from there. Take a few choruses, starting with the melody as written, and gradually build up moving away from the written melody a little bit more each time. If you get lost come back to the melody and try again.

Phil

 

[visionari1]

Great post about Improv... its a big many faceted subject.

I confess to be battling for ever to get to grips with it, even went to a Jamey Aebersold workshop in the States 2004.
You certainly need a very good grasp of theory to get much out of those type of events.

I understand Taz's view & Old Gits that at the highest levels some players don't need theory.
At other levels we hear the likes of Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespe, John Coltrane, Dave leibman and many others who come from the Theory side, all produce exceptional improvisations.

I myself see the need to learn from both sides of this improvisation conundrum of all ears and sound, or theory is the answer...surely it's both, although this must be judged and experimented upon to suit the way your inclined and how you learn!

I recommend getting a teacher to help as blind borring into scales or theory, may lead you to somewhere you never wanted to go!

At the base of it all must be a mix of enjoyment and struggle otherwise you never learn anything new.

Phew, I need to hop onto the sax to reconnect with why I play Sax.

Cheers and Ciao

Jimu

 

[Mamos]

Very good post Jimu

mamos

 

[FastFred]

I have been playing 18 months and recently decided to cancel my Grade 6 exam in July because I want to learn music and play jazz. Was fed up of playing 3 tunes every day...

In the last coupe, of weeks I have picked up the Maiden Voyage and Major and Minor Aebersold books and have just learnt so much in such a short space. Went to a jazz workshop at the weekend and soloed over 32 bars with piano, bass and other sax rythm sections, felt good, learnt a lot.

My teacher, a very good player tells me jazz is all about major scales and 60%listening. If you know the major scales then you instantly know Dorian minors and can then see where harmonic minors can substitute. I have worked out recently what I need to do over the next few months to progress. Get the circle of fifths in your head and it adds masses of info of what chords/keys relates to what and why. And the relevant flats and sharps.

Before the last few weeks I could twiddle along to tunes in easy keys but not hard ones. Unless you learn some of the theory you are just making it harder for yourself. The suggestion that you don't have to have a detailed knowledge of the combustion process to drive a car is correct however if you read a book before getting into a car or someone explains that the clutch disconnects the gearbox and engine therefore allowing gearchanges and allowing/stopping motion that that does help the learner understand why he/she is pushing the left pedal down and he'll quickly work out when would be a good idea to do it.

Pick an unfamiliar key and it will take you ages to play along. know what the key is and which are the root, 3rd, 5th and seventh and it becomes easier.

Good luck. I am so glad that I have started improvising and know I am going to progress a whole load quicker than via the exam root.

 

[old git]

Sorry Fred but you have completely misunderstood the purpose of the clutch, it is to allow the car to move off in a smooth and progressive manner. No more driving for you until you have learnt the theory. ;}

Oops! Sorry, forgot it was only music that you had to be theoretically competent with before getting your operator's licence. 😀 You've also just ruled Storyville out of Jazz history. 🙂

 

[FastFred]

Sorry Fred but you have completely misunderstood the purpose of the clutch, it is to allow the car to move off in a smooth and progressive manner. No more driving for you until you have learnt the theory.

Oops! Sorry, forgot it was only music that you had to be theoretically competent with before getting your operator's licence. You've also just ruled Storyville out of Jazz history.
__________________
Jazz greats die young, guess I'll get the Buck House Telegram.

Who said you Yanks had no sense of humour? Then again Ronald Reagan, George Bush.....😀

 

[RSPINDY]

Hi. My teacher knows nothing about improvisation, and whilst he is good at reading the dots and teaching me to do so, I want to expand, after 2 years of playing, into improvisation.

I have a few questions/doubts though.

1) Is now the right time, or much too early to learn improvisation ? Apart from a few major and minor scales I don't really know any theory.......a throwback from failing my grade 5 theory as a child......long story for another time......

2) If now is good, where do I start ? Someone I know has suggested that I purchase some books and cd's from www.beecroft.de. They look ok on the web page, but I don't really know what I am buying.

3) Can you learn to improvise properly without a thorough knowlege of theory first ?

I have little doubt that this is a topic that has been visited time and time before, but I really feel lost and need some guidance please....anybody ???

Hi Basil,

Your question shows insight. It also shows the failure of what we call music education (which of course is no fault of your own) in this day and age.
So, If I may, I would like to "parse" this a little.

My teacher knows nothing about improvisation, and whilst he is good at reading the dots and teaching me to do so, I want to expand, after 2 years of playing, into improvisation.

"Improvise" is a very ripe term. At its most basic level it means to spontaneously create something. You do this every day. Each time that you have a simple conversation with a neighbor or a colleague or a person at a street corner, you improvise. There is no script for what you are going to say next. Some situations you may give one of several "canned" response ("How are you?" and you say "I am fine" or "I'm a little down", etc.) Other times, you may have to make it all up at the moment (you know, those questions that come out of the blue.)

Anyway, you already do that and musical improvisation is not that much different. You work with a musical vocabulary for the basic stuff, and once in a while you have to totally talk "off the top of your head".

All of that said, What do you mean by "improvise"? I suspect that you mean that you want to "improvise" in some version of what we call jazz. Remember (or now know) that Bach was considered a great improviser in his time (though a minor composer). Much of Chopin's music that we have notated started as an improvisation. You can improvise any kind of music -- its not limited to jazz.

So, with just the above, play, create. In the process, at least record it and learn how to notate the more memorable moments of your time being free. (Yes, write it yourself, don't let a computer do it, you will learn more than I can describe and there is something about committing our most basic thoughts to paper that is remarkable.) Your music is a voice of your soul, let it out.

The remainder of your question seemed to have a common theme Theory.

"Music Theory" has been built up into this be all, end all edifice by poor teaching and the worst part is that it has been perpetrated for at least a century so that those teachers don't know that they have been drouped.

Mind you, I do believe in the idea that a musician understands music theory just like I believe in one using appropriate grammar. And both are un-scientific codifications of what has been done in the art, not what can be.

Theory is about "grouping". In other words, we learn how to name and think about ideas with simpler terms. Consider, In a jam situation, one can say "Blues in Bb". This means a 12 bar form and a chord order of Bb, Eb, Bb, Bb, Eb Eb Bb Bb F Eb Bb Bb, and all of it's variations and possibilities. Theory talks about a "Major Scale" and you know the arrangement of notes.

Another thing that theory is about a style. We have, by poor teaching, been lead to think that theory is about Bach and Beethoven. The theory that is taught and perpetrated for the main stream person is completely centered on that music. As much as I love Bach and Beethoven, it has nothing to do with what we want to do, or need to do to create music for OUR public.

But, if we get beyond that concept, we can see that theory is also about "How" to perform within certain styles. Theory should be stated as "theories". (Classical theory, Jazz Theory, Blues theory, Gospel theory, et. al.)
Its as much about the idioms of musical speech as it is about harmonic progressions. To play the blues, you gotta know the blues scale. And you need theory to learn (at least with any ease) through at least the potential keys that you need it in (otherwise, someone has to teach you each one by rote and without the theory, they are unique and unrelated.)

I apologize if this is overly long. It's hot day in Indiana and I've been sitting at a pub. I thank you for asking the questions that allowed me to think about this.

Scott

 

[visionari1]

"Improvise" is a very ripe term. At its most basic level it means to spontaneously create something. You do this every day. Each time that you have a simple conversation with a neighbor or a colleague or a person at a street corner, you improvise. There is no script for what you are going to say next. Some situations you may give one of several "canned" response ("How are you?" and you say "I am fine" or "I'm a little down", etc.) Other times, you may have to make it all up at the moment (you know, those questions that come out of the blue.)

Anyway, you already do that and musical improvisation is not that much different. You work with a musical vocabulary for the basic stuff, and once in a while you have to totally talk "off the top of your head".

All of that said, What do you mean by "improvise"? I suspect that you mean that you want to "improvise" in some version of what we call jazz. Remember (or now know) that Bach was considered a great improviser in his time (though a minor composer). Much of Chopin's music that we have notated started as an improvisation. You can improvise any kind of music -- its not limited to jazz.

So, with just the above, play, create. In the process, at least record it and learn how to notate the more memorable moments of your time being free.

Your music is a voice of your soul, let it out.


I apologize if this is overly long. It's hot day in Indiana and I've been sitting at a pub. I thank you for asking the questions that allowed me to think about this.

Scott

Great answers to this improv thread.

Basil you can get free lessons on Improv from

http://www.jazz-o-matic.com/ Som...musical ideals. Cheers & Ciao Jimu:mrcool