Ho Dear!!

[Tenor Sax]

Ok So where have I been living and what have I been doing for the last four years???

When I first started out with my trusty piece of Brass (yes with a 'T', trusty) I had one to one lessons with a very pleasant tutor. This time was short, only a couple of months. It got me started on the Real basics of holding the sax and stance....So on.. Used the "Abracadabra and "Tune a Day" books.

Due to Family commitments I was forced to go it alone for the next three and a half years. In that time I have purchased handful's of play-along Books and CDs, 'Take the lead' and such like. I play along comfortably with Rock, Pop, Swing. Also played for the kids a few Xmas song, but keep that to yourselves.

So where I'm I going with all this boring History.

As a recent member to this site I quickly became aware of the foreign language being spoken, Words Like:- Lydian Dominant and Diatonic Cords. Now I can read the Music sheets as per the aforementioned books but as for this type of language......Do I need to go back to basics or is my progression not as far as I would have believed ????

You comments please. Don't save my blushes be a brutal as you like.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'd say that it's a good idea to know what diatonic chords are.

Theye are the chords that contain only the notes of the scale of the key they are in.

C in C major, the diatonic chords are Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, F amj7 , G7, Am7 B min7 b5. (only the white notes). More on my main site but those things were written for university studentas assumaing a prerequisite knowledge of something like Grade 5 theory.

Many people can go through life quite happily without a lydian dominant, but it's just a name for a scale that has a dominant (minor) 7 and a raised 4th (#11).

G A B C# D E F G

You can also think of this a melodic minor that starts on the 4th degree (in this case a Dm melodic based around a root of G)

I'm going to move this to the Jazz Theory section in a while...

 

[Bobby G]

Can I jump in here just to get something straight in my mind? Diatonic chords are formed from alternate notes in a scale, which will be a major or minor third apart, with a fourth note above the basic triad, hence Imaj7, IIm7... etc. Does this apply to major and minor scales? A further note can be added to make Imaj7/9, IIm7/9 etc - are these still diatonic chords or are we getting into the realms of chord extensions here, as these added notes can be put on top of a chord until you in effect come back to where you started, e.g. C E G B D F A C

Also, is the tritone always, and only, the third and seventh of a dominant chord? This makes it quite easy to understand the relationship between V7 and bII7 chords, because the tritone as I understand it is the same in both chords e.g. a B and F are the tritone notes in both a G7 and Db7 chord.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wouldn't put 9ths on every chord. a IIm9 sounds pretty horrible in most contexts. Best to learn the 4 note chords and then the extensions as appropriate to the chord. there's a chart somewhere on my site I think with these mentioned.

No you get tritones in the minor 7 b5 (half diminished) and some altered chords and extensions too, but you've hit the nail on the head with the relationship between V7 and bII7 (a b5 substitute, aka trutone substitute.

Thinks:
Shall I move this out of the Breakfast Room to the jazz room yet?

 

[Tenor Sax]

Errmm Thanks. :cry:

Its worse than I thought. Theory here I come. :x

Seriously. Many thanks.

I'm kicking myself and wishing I had found this site earlier. At this rate I will have to give up Kayaking and get to grips with the Sax often rather than not! 😱

 

[Bobby G]

Put it where you like Pete. I think I'm going to have to look at it all properly and in the right order, it's fascinating. And my intuition, as far as it goes, seems ok so far. It must be something to do with being very much a chord-based guitarist.

So, the tritone is any interval of a b5 whatever chord it is found in?

Thanks for all the information.

Cheers, Bob

 

[Linky Lee]

yes, a tritone is three tones, six semi-tones, a b5 (or on a keyboard a #4)

whatever chord it is under.

C has Gb, D has Ab etc...

 

[Bobby G]

Sound of lightbulb popping on over my head...

Of course! Tritone.... tri tone... three tones 😉

D'oh! What a dope!

 

[spike]

Try - Nicolas Slonimsky - "Thesarus of Scales and Melodic Patterns", quite simply the octave divided into two, three, four, six, etc. etc. equal parts. Hence Tritone, Ditone, Sesquitone, etc.

But it goes on and on: A Sesquiquinquetone progression is an equal division of eleven octaves into twelve parts. Real deal fun stuff - this's what Coltrane spent a lot've time messing around with.

No wonder he couldn't play greensleeves.

gruss - spike.

 

[Bobby G]

spike wrote:
- this's what Coltrane spent a lot've time messing around with.

No wonder he couldn't play greensleeves.

gruss - spike.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[pauloalto]

Yes, tritone is just another name for b5/#4. Doesn't have to be in a certain chord or a certain position in a chord.

 

[Bobby G]

Right, thanks Paulo. I like the way the tritone movement occurs chromatically in the blues I7 VI7 V7 progressions and in turnarounds involving, umm, is it modulations into secondary dominants or something like that? Like a sequence that goes VI7 II7 V7 I7

Cheers, Bob

 

[Tenor Sax]

Where has It gone?
I'm sure I started a thread with this Subject "Ho Dear". It contained a reply on the Diatonic Cords I was hoping to print this morning.

It answers to the name of " Where the B@*#@## did you go"

:erm: I'm sure I wasn't dreaming :S

 

[disco_volante]

If it was a dream Chris, it must have been a collective consciousness dream, cos I dreamt it too. 8|

 

[Pete Thomas]

I moved it to Jazz Theory as that is a better place for this discussion, meanwhile there was a reply so the thread got split.

 

[Tenor Sax]

Pete Thomas wrote:
I moved it to Jazz Theory as that is a better place for this discussion, meanwhile there was a reply so the thread got split.

Pheww! I have cancelled my bed at the Nursing home.

 

[pauloalto]

Hi Bob,

That question went over my head Bob! Although I've just thought, I didn't explain that very well - I was pretty tired when I wrote it. I meant that it's the interval between the root to b5/#4 that's tritone. Any two notes that distance apart makes a tritone interval.

Paul

 

[Pete Thomas]

The thread is now joined up. my apologies if any messages got lost or in the wrong order.

What happened was someone replied just as I was moving the thread to the jazz Theory, which means it got split

 

[Bobby G]

Well at least we all know what a tritone is... I think

I think this theory stuff is getting to me, you know. I'm finding my way through it, joining up the dots and filling in the gaps in what I remember from years ago. I'm in the same place as Greywolf, I'm just dipping my toes in the edge of this wide, deep lake.

What's worrying me is that last night I was having this dream where I had found two or three cheapo old portable keyboards in a skip somewhere, and I was matching my theoretical knowledge and explorations against what I could play on the keyboards. Unfortunately they would only play monophonically, I couldn't make any chords.

I wonder what is the significance of all that?

Cheers, Bob