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Saxophone beginners Going to jam session tomorrow night

Like I say, there are a lot of "jazzbo" attitudes still lingering that date way back to the 20s.

Well, in those days, the serious guys saw jazz as a crusade; they were bound and determined to live the jazz life to the exclusion of all else (and in some cases - Bix, Peewee Russell, Bird, Chet Baker - to the exclusion of health and life itself). They'd get up, play music until it was time to go to the gig, play the gig, play music till they couldn't keep their eyes open, and catch a few hours sleep before repeating it the next day. A working group in those days would rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, over a limited repertoire, and all the guys in the jam sessions knew each other, knew all the tunes, no beginners permitted.

These guys who formed that paradigm were also the most virtuosic and artistic musicians of their generation, concentrated in a few blocks of New York City and other great cities, and living off - well, pretty much nothing, except for a few guys who were married to women with steady jobs, and a few others who got ongoing support from their families - but mostly, it was pretty much complete poverty.

So now, the idea lingers that a group that consists of the band director at the middle school with 3 kids, the insurance adjuster, the dental assistant, and the turret lathe operator, should be equally as dedicated, should have all the tunes fully memorized, should snarl at anyone who throws a clam, just as if Ahmed Ertegun Rudy Van Gelder Tommy Dorsey Oscar Pettiford and Sonny Stitt were there in the audience auditioning each player for a round the world tour or something.

Time to lighten up, gents. Most of us are just part timers who want to play some music as best we can and enjoy the process. If you need a memory aid to remember how that one, out of thousands of tunes, goes - hell, use it.
 
One more thing:

I've been playing jazz since 1978. I have spent untold hours in gaining whatever degree of mastery I have in that art. So I'm not a beginner, but rather an experienced player of modest talent and ability. I can hang in almost any jazz situation, so I'm not afraid of it.

When I took up the double bass, and started attending bluegrass sessions, the difference in attitude was immediately apparent. Unlike the "prove you belong here, or we'll throw a [figurative, I hope] cymbal at you!" of the jazz world, bluegrassers tend to say "bring what you can, and try to get better every time you play."

At my age, and feeling like I've proven whatever I'm going to prove (I am NOT going to be the next great jazz musician! I'm not even going to be the next mediocre one), while I recognize there usually needs to be SOME kind of gatekeeping, I also think that the high-bar-to-admittance presentation of the jazz world has outlived its usefulness. The music is less popular in the general public every year, and yet the musicians persist in treating it as some kind of holy ground that you have to prove yourself worthy to get into - from the promotion of essentially unlistenable material, to the unwelcoming attitude toward learners (especially the adults), if you wanted to make a musical form progressively less popular and supported in the general populace, the jazz community's been going about it pretty much as if that were the prime goal.
 
I hear what you guys are saying, and I don't entirely disagree. I sure as hell wouldn't dismiss anyone who showed up at a jam with an iPad full of tunes. In fact, I have seen this recently (even by a bass player, in one case). It's perfectly fine if that's what works for them. My main point, which is only based on my experience (so maybe not entirely valid), is that once you have a tune memorized/internalized, you'll be able to play it and improvise on it with more confidence, while listening and responding to the rest of the band, ending up with a better performance. At least in my own case, that's true. I guess others may differ, but it's something for the OP, or anyone else starting out playing in public, to consider, at least in the 'long run'.
 
Interesting to hear Archie Shepp there. I have an album of his which is so avant-garde (for 19-seventy-something) that I can't listen to it at all. There he was, playing something quite followable, even if the tone was a bit distinctive. It's like Jackson Pollock decided to paint like - not Constable, but say - Lowry 🙂 Nice tune too - you got me going on it this evening.
 
...that is a bit of a silly... to make themselves feel superior to one another...
It's more silly to make moral judgments over this.
It's the nice forum, remember? We're just spit'ballin' here.
No one is putting anyone down... except for you.
 
Like I say, there are a lot of "jazzbo" attitudes still lingering that date way back to the 20s.

Well, in those days, the serious guys saw jazz as a crusade; they were bound and determined to live the jazz life to the exclusion of all else (and in some cases - Bix, Peewee Russell, Bird, Chet Baker - to the exclusion of health and life itself). They'd get up, play music until it was time to go to the gig, play the gig, play music till they couldn't keep their eyes open, and catch a few hours sleep before repeating it the next day. A working group in those days would rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, over a limited repertoire, and all the guys in the jam sessions knew each other, knew all the tunes, no beginners permitted.

These guys who formed that paradigm were also the most virtuosic and artistic musicians of their generation, concentrated in a few blocks of New York City and other great cities, and living off - well, pretty much nothing, except for a few guys who were married to women with steady jobs, and a few others who got ongoing support from their families - but mostly, it was pretty much complete poverty.

So now, the idea lingers that a group that consists of the band director at the middle school with 3 kids, the insurance adjuster, the dental assistant, and the turret lathe operator, should be equally as dedicated, should have all the tunes fully memorized, should snarl at anyone who throws a clam, just as if Ahmed Ertegun Rudy Van Gelder Tommy Dorsey Oscar Pettiford and Sonny Stitt were there in the audience auditioning each player for a round the world tour or something.

Time to lighten up, gents. Most of us are just part timers who want to play some music as best we can and enjoy the process. If you need a memory aid to remember how that one, out of thousands of tunes, goes - hell, use it.
Exactly....perspective. There were very specific socioeconomic contexts those guys were living under which really gotta be taken into account.

Quite honestly...sorry to put it so bluntly but....when 75-90 years later a bunch of relatively rich, primarily white kids who's mommy and daddy paid for their music degree decide they are gonna haze newcomers at jams because 'hey, man, it's Jazz Tradition...and I AM a jazzer'...it does nothing to support or forward either the local musicians' society nor the genre....
 
I hear what you guys are saying, and I don't entirely disagree. I sure as hell wouldn't dismiss anyone who showed up at a jam with an iPad full of tunes. In fact, I have seen this recently (even by a bass player, in one case). It's perfectly fine if that's what works for them. My main point, which is only based on my experience (so maybe not entirely valid), is that once you have a tune memorized/internalized, you'll be able to play it and improvise on it with more confidence, while listening and responding to the rest of the band, ending up with a better performance. At least in my own case, that's true. I guess others may differ, but it's something for the OP, or anyone else starting out playing in public, to consider, at least in the 'long run'.
Absolutely...from a musical advancement perspective, it is a great thing to do.

I was responding to very clear intimations of

'if you don't got those memorized...don't go to (or 'you have no business at') publicly spectatored jams'....which again, is silly advice.
 
When I took up the double bass, and started attending bluegrass sessions, the difference in attitude was immediately apparent. Unlike the "prove you belong here, or we'll throw a [figurative, I hope] cymbal at you!" of the jazz world, bluegrassers tend to say "bring what you can, and try to get better every time you play."
My experiences, and those of countless bandmates, in other genres, as well.

One upsmanship is much less prevalent at non-jazz jams ....much more a feeling of 'drop in, check it out... nobody's judging'
 
Reminds me of when I taught you what a strawman fallacy was.
Good times!.
Says the Master of the Straw Man Argument

Pointing out that your, um....'suggestion' of not attending jams if you don't have songs memorized..is a silly suggestion ...is hard,y a 'moral judgment'. It's just you giving bad advice....and perpetuating an 'exclusivity' culture....

Not much new, there....
 
Says the Master of the Straw Man Argument
Master at showing you, that is clear. But okay, as the obvious continues to evade you, disagreeing with me is not a moral judgment. The moral judgment part was you claiming people are putting themselves above others and putting them down. You were being silly yourself to put it that way, about disagreeing with me being a moral judgment. To make this about oneupmanship was never intended by yours truly, but there you go and there you are. I've been nothing but encouraging to Alon. My off the cuff statement was set forth as my own view given the course of the discussion. So yes, in your response you made a strawman out of me and now continue your negativity in my regard. Hopefully you'll learn this time.
 
Pete, just to clarify what I actually believe (which was in response to similar sentiment):

Yeah, if you gotta bring music to a jam session, you're not ready.
Just my view on it.

But also to be clear, my comment isn't to discourage Alon. It's to inspire him.

I don't believe Alon's gotta bring music to a jam session.
I believe he'll be fine without it.
 
Get a stand that is sturdy, don't cheap out.

You might try to play this transcription.
"Slowly" at first or all the time, as Autumn can be a bit on the sad side, to get your hands moving in a direction that you are not yet thinking.

Memorizing tunes, and your solo ideas, to bring to the sessions, even though you may vary the solos, shows a level of musical maturity, that is appreciated by the more advanced players.

Workshops are great.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx2sxZmL5Io
I would rather absorb the energy of Chet’s playing through the enjoyment of listening than taking every note he played as gospel. I mean, once it’s been played it’s no longer original. To be spontaneous you need to let go of what you want to do and just let it happen. That means no preconceived musical ideas matter even though we can enjoy them when we listen to music, I don’t think we are meant to copy directly, even while practicing, because it enforces contrived and unemotional playing, devoid of meaning. It’s easier to let go and let creativity happen on its own than to stifle oneself with transcribing. Play with purpose by giving space to our playing through listening. Listening to the other musicians, is one way to create space and meaning. When we listen, we can hear everything there is to know about where we are going and the sounds around us are a guide to know what to play in the moment to be truly original. Do you want to be original or sound like something or someone else? I am me and you makes we and we are all together, right now. So let’s contribute something that is uniquely our own. It just takes forgetting for a second, what you think you know about music, or anything for that matter. Try it. Put down the transcriptions and clear your mind and just play whatever you want. It’s about expressing yourself so don’t express someone else’s self, as that is just a copy. You do you.
 
To be spontaneous you need to let go of what you want to do and just let it happen. That means no preconceived musical ideas matter even though we can enjoy them when we listen to music, I don’t think we are meant to copy directly, even while practicing, because it enforces contrived and unemotional playing, devoid of meaning. It’s easier to let go and let creativity happen on its own than to stifle oneself with transcribing.
Well, of course you don't want to play someone else's solo note for note when improvising, because that's not improvised. However, that doesn't mean you never use "preconceived musical ideas". The main reasons for transposing (on your instrument) musical phrases or at least part of a solo is because, one, it is great ear training, and two, you need to learn some musical 'vocabulary'. Once you do that, you can experiment and alter the phrases as you want. You can certainly use preconceived musical ideas while improvising, as well as coming up with new ideas on the spot. It's how and where you use those ideas that matters.

Listen to Charlie Parker, or any other of the greatest improvisers, and you'll hear plenty of similar, or the same, ideas repeated in different solos. Not all of those ideas sprung out of nowhere.
 
Based on post #37, he wants to be original, and finds no value in even playing musical transcription.
What more can be said, then, why does he play great tunes by others.
Why not just pick up the horn and be himself?
Bye Bye Blackbird, then what followed, was it, Free Jazz?
Best of luck, and I did like his hat, in an earlier video.

As far as reading music at public jams, just follow the house rules.
Musical cliches can be the result, of not knowing/memorizing.
IIRC, to sit in with Toots, better be able to play his tunes at his tempo.

I'll add, when sitting in with tunes you've never played, all you might get is,
3 flats. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶
 
Just another thought on jam sessions; something I've always been aware of. Without a good drummer (especially the drummer) and bass player, no matter who else shows up the jam will be a disaster. So, in terms of the drummer and to some extent the bass player, I say something similar to Grumps. If they can't play well, they don't belong there. I feel bad saying that because beginning drummers and bass players deserve to have an opportunity to learn to play with others, but it would be best if they did that with a private rehearsal band. The issue is, without a solid drummer/bass duo, no one else on the bandstand will have much chance of sounding good.

Is that too "hard line"? I'm not trying to start trouble, just stating my opinion. Please feel free to disagree; I won't mind.
 

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