Saxophone beginners Embouchure basics

[Bernie]

"Voicing" notes and moving the mouthpiece in and out of the mouth don't have a lot of meaning when a student is still struggling to hold a steady tone up to pitch for 20 seconds. Neither does a discussion about vibrato, circular breathing, or tapered phrase endings. Even though different students learn at different rates, instruction guided by a priority of what is appropriate at each stage of development is conducive to meaningful progress.

A common misconception and bad habit of many saxophone players is to relax the embouchure (lip pressure) for the low register and to tighten the embouchure (bite) for the high register.

Looking at the discussion from a personal point of view, I'm not a complete beginner, I taught myself to play the sax many years ago, but I didn't put in enough time or systematic effort to get fluent. However, I did automatically and unsystematically do things like moving the mouthpiece in and out to get different effects, and vibrato, and opening my throat.

I do have to do something to get the very lowest notes on this sax, it's a bit late at night for me to be exploring this right now, but I think I pull the mouthpiece out, and that naturally rolls my lip out, and everything is looser.

But I don't like the very lowest notes, so I think perhaps I am trying to "subtone" them into oblivion.

I really value all the responses.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I do have to do something to get the very lowest notes on this sax

I believe it is called "practice". 😉

(Assuming the sax is well set up)

 

[Bernie]

The question is what to practice though Nick. Some people are saying keep the embouchure constant throughout. Others say you naturally move it around,and that is the right thing to do. I find I can get those low notes by moving things around, I find it difficult to get them if I keep everything in one place.

Is the sax set up properly? I was told by the lender that it had had a recent set-up by a reputable shop, it feels mechanically smooth and light to me, I think it's well adjusted given its age. I do wonder if there is a leak somewhere though.

So I've bought the Haynes Saxophone Manual, but I haven't had time to read about how to pin down problems. Well I suppose I have had time but I have had other things to do.

I don't even want to play those bottom notes. I might try just singing the low bits.

 

[jbtsax]

I do have to do something to get the very lowest notes on this sax, it's a bit late at night for me to be exploring this right now, but I think I pull the mouthpiece out, and that naturally rolls my lip out, and everything is looser.

But I don't like the very lowest notes, so I think perhaps I am trying to "subtone" them into oblivion.

I really value all the responses.

The lowest notes are best approached by slurring down a scale to the note and then holding the low note as long as you can. When this is comfortable practice starting on the low note in question. When you can do that repeat the process on the next low note until you can play down to low Bb. Points to remember:

• Keep the same embouchure pressure---do not loosen for the low notes
• Open the throat as in the first part of a yawn or singing "AHH" on the lowest note you can sing
• Use lots of warm air
• Feel as if you are directing your air down toward your LH thumb
• Remember unlike the clarinet, the tube gets bigger as it gets longer and takes more air
• Don't try to make the low notes sound nice at first, play as loud as you can, refinement comes later

This is all I am going to write. You can follow whatever advice you like, but this is what has worked for the hundreds of students I have taught to play the saxophone.

 

[kevgermany]

I started to read the Allard piece, but there's far too much fanciful bull**** there for my taste.

He says you can't play music with a lot of mental chatter going on in your head. Well I can. I often record myself playing, and I know that sometimes when I am playing my mind is elsewhere. At other times I am completely caught up in the music, passionately feeling every note. The interesting thing is that the music sounds just the same. I'm talking about instruments that I am fairly fluent in, not the sax (yet).

If you're not playing the music, but just the notes on autopilot, the emotion won't be there. Many won't notice, but sensitive listeners will.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I'm with jbtsax on this one.

 

[Bernie]

If you're not playing the music, but just the notes on autopilot, the emotion won't be there. Many won't notice, but sensitive listeners will.

I don't think you can know this Kev. I mean, if you are listening to a piece of music, how can you know what the performer was thinking about?

 

[Rob Pealing]

I have just watched the David Liebman video that Bernie mentioned at the start of this thread and it strikes me that teaching all this to a complete beginner is a bit like me telling a complete novice to sea kayaking to do a reverse sweep with edge, lean and a climbing angle on the paddle blade, if I did that instead of the kayak turning I would be fishing the paddler out of the water and all that is achieved is discouragement.

 

[kevgermany]

I don't think you can know this Kev. I mean, if you are listening to a piece of music, how can you know what the performer was thinking about?

I've found that music has a very strong effect on my emotions, and a lot comes from how it's played. Guys playing on autopilot either allow their thoughts to colour their playing, or give a flat performance. The best performances come from someone experiencing what they're playing, interacting with it and the audience.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Guys playing on autopilot either allow their thoughts to colour their playing, or give a flat performance. The best performances come from someone experiencing what they're playing, interacting with it and the audience.

I really don't know how you can tell.

 

[Bernie]

This is all I am going to write. You can follow whatever advice you like, but this is what has worked for the hundreds of students I have taught to play the saxophone.

I am grateful for the the advice, and I was putting it into practice this afternoon. I can see that I don't need to tighten and slacken as I go up and down the scale, and I could reach the low notes. I do also like to think about why things are the way they are though, and in this case I was wondering why this conflicting advice was being given. I don't intend it as a challenge.

 

[Bernie]

Guys playing on autopilot either allow their thoughts to colour their playing, or give a flat performance.

Sometimes I've recorded myself playing a cheerful tune when I've been extremely angry, sometimes I've played a sad tune when I've been ecstatic. Other times I might be thinking about work. Listening to the results it's clear that my thoughts don't colour my playing.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I suppose that's the difference between a master and we mere players.

 

[Bernie]

One of the differences, yes.

Anyway, this evening my thoughts were colouring my playing for a change. I was learning to play "In a Sentimental Mood" but every so often I would think about what jbtsax said about practising the low notes and as soon as I thought about this I would immediately play a descending scale finishing on a low C, regardless of whether it fitted in with the tune, and then a mental image of Paul Desmond would flash across my mind, as that is how I think jtbsax looks because of his profile picture, although I don't think these last thoughts were reflected in the music. I may post a recording of it so you can see what thoughts you pick up. So let that be a warning to you.

I'm planning to make these descending runs terminating in musically irrelevant low notes a feature of my style. That way I circumvent my childish reluctance to practice anything other than playing tunes.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Focus! What! The both of us?

 

[jbtsax]

Here is a newspaper clipping from 1967 nearly 50 years ago of me at an Intercollegiate Jazz Festival. Of course I have changed a bit since then. 🙂

 

[Bernie]

What a great picture!

 

[Alc.]

Jbt, you lost the Dizzy Gillespie but kept the sideburns!

 

[ProfJames]

They have another name in the UK!...............