Saxophones Eastman 652 '52nd Street' review

[Stephen Howard]

Can't seem to find my SHWoodwind Updates thread, so I'm bunging this one here.

After much faffing about with new website hosts (and how) and working my way through piles of horns, I finally got around to finishing up the review of the Eastman 652.
So here it is - warts and all.

Eastman ETS652 52nd Street tenor sax review

A workbench review of the Eastman 652

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

 

[Colin the Bear]

A fascinating and insightful read, as usual.

 

[rhysonsax]

An interesting read. Sad really.

I wonder why manufacturers think that these tone hole rings are a good idea when they add extra cost, complexity and a feature that can go wrong in a significant way during manufacture.

If the rounded and wider lip to a tone hole chimney is a good idea then there must be better ways to finish them so that distortion of the rim doesn't happen or is properly inspected and compensated for later in the manufacture and assembly process.

Rhys

 

[Stephen Howard]

I wonder why manufacturers think that these tone hole rings are a good idea when they add extra cost, complexity and a feature that can go wrong in a significant way during manufacture.

If the rounded and wider lip to a tone hole chimney is a good idea then there must be better ways to finish them so that distortion of the rim doesn't happen or is properly inspected and compensated for later in the manufacture and assembly process.

Marketing. Pure and simple.
If you felt you really had to have extra wide tonehole rims you'd be better off going down the Martin route and soldering thick toneholes directly to the body. Leave enough material on the top for levelling/profiling and the job's a good 'un.

 

[Pete Effamy]

A few years ago I really wanted to try the Eastman alto. From the blurb, they sounded great. When I played them, I was very underwhelmed.

 

[Stephen Howard]

A few years ago I really wanted to try the Eastman alto. From the blurb, they sounded great. When I played them, I was very underwhelmed.

That might have been the Taiwan-built version. They're quite different from the current model.

 

[Pete Effamy]

That might have been the Taiwan-built version. They're quite different from the current model.

Dunno - the 52nd St and Rue Saint Georges. Felt devoid of anything really.

 

[jonf]

Very interesting. If I had lashed out £3.2k on a sax and found that, basically, it didn't work as it should, I'd be really annoyed. I don't know how they ever think they can take sales away from Yamaha and Yanagisawa with a sax with toneholes that don't seal.

Almost 20 years ago now I was in a position to treat myself to a 'tenor for life' and I bought a Yanagisawa T992, after trying dozens of saxes. It was £2323 at the time, so well North of £3k at today's prices. Everything still seals perfectly and never for a minute have I regretted the purchase. I don't think a buyer of an Eastman is so likely to be in the same position.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Very interesting. If I had lashed out £3.2k on a sax and found that, basically, it didn't work as it should, I'd be really annoyed. I don't know how they ever think they can take sales away from Yamaha and Yanagisawa with a sax with toneholes that don't seal.

Almost 20 years ago now I was in a position to treat myself to a 'tenor for life' and I bought a Yanagisawa T992, after trying dozens of saxes. It was £2323 at the time, so well North of £3k at today's prices. Everything still seals perfectly and never for a minute have I regretted the purchase. I don't think a buyer of an Eastman is so likely to be in the same position.

This is the harsh reality. You have to be at least as good (in mechanical terms) as the lowest common denominator - and at £3K+ that's a LOT of competition.
But a few fancy endorsees and a bit of chit-chat on the web will get you pretty far. At least until someone says "Hey, hang on a mo..."
The truly daft thing is, the 652 is a nice horn. OK, it's not my cup of tea but I can see how quite a few players would love its presentation - but it's a classic case of 'features over functionality'.

And you're right - a significant number of players will think "Hmmm...I don't get these issues with a Yamaha (etc.)". Can't say that I blame them.

 

[h4yn0nnym0u5e]

One does wonder at the profession of the folk who do the 'professional setup on every horn that leaves the building'? Telephone sanitiser, perhaps? (Apologies to Douglas Adams…)

 

[greenstripe]

People get gooey eyed at the prospect of rolled tone holes. I suppose it's just market pressure for nostalgia and what sells: phrases like 'the good old days' and 'they don't make them like they used to' come to mind.

You can pay many thousands for brand new guitars that have been artificially aged: chips, cracks, simulated wear and scratches. Even 'repainted' with 'original finish' showing through underneath, this trend has been going for about 30 years and is showing no sign of slowing down and is spreading to other musical instruments.

 

[rhysonsax]

People get gooey eyed at the prospect of rolled tone holes. I suppose it's just market pressure for nostalgia and what sells: phrases like 'the good old days' and 'they don't make them like they used to' come to mind.

But do they, really ?

I think (and this is only opinion, not backed by any research) that potential buyers of new saxophones might be swayed by marketing descriptions about "vintage this and that" and "based on the great old American saxophones" and even "large bore, just like ....".

But I don't imagine a significant proportion of buyers know what "rolled tone holes" are, how they differ from "tone hole rings" or whether they even affect the sound of the instrument.

So what I mean is that current makers can appeal to any vintage leanings in a sector of the market for new saxophones, without ever having to worry about the difficulty and expense of rolled tone holes (real or pseudo).

Writing a few words is so much easier than engineering design and manufacturing.

Rhys

 

[thomsax]

An interesting read. Sad really.

I wonder why manufacturers think that these tone hole rings are a good idea when they add extra cost, complexity and a feature that can go wrong in a significant way during manufacture.

If the rounded and wider lip to a tone hole chimney is a good idea then there must be better ways to finish them so that distortion of the rim doesn't happen or is properly inspected and compensated for later in the manufacture and assembly process.

Rhys

I asked a saxophone designer, who sold saxes with and without rolled tone holes, why he offered both: "I earn more money selling saxes with rolled tone holes. The buyers are paying the extra money".

 

[Pete Effamy]

I asked a saxophone designer, who sold saxes with and without rolled tone holes, why he offered both: "I earn more money selling saxes with rolled tone holes. The buyers are paying the extra money".

Must be because of their provenance with the vintage American horns and some of the players that played those horns. It feels like a “mark of excellence “.

Must be a bit like X player played on this horn, this mouthpiece etc

 

[thomsax]

But do they, really ?

I think (and this is only opinion, not backed by any research) that potential buyers of new saxophones might be swayed by marketing descriptions about "vintage this and that" and "based on the great old American saxophones" and even "large bore, just like ....".

But I don't imagine a significant proportion of buyers know what "rolled tone holes" are, how they differ from "tone hole rings" or whether they even affect the sound of the instrument.

So what I mean is that current makers can appeal to any vintage leanings in a sector of the market for new saxophones, without ever having to worry about the difficulty and expense of rolled tone holes (real or pseudo).

Writing a few words is so much easier than engineering design and manufacturing.

Rhys

The use of the word "vintage". Can be a junk sax that was a fine instrument in the 20's or 30's if not been played so much.

It's not hard to do make saxes with rolled tone holes or tone holes rings. Just needs some extra money to cover the extra labour cost and QC.

 

[thomsax]

Must be because of their provenance with the vintage American horns and some of the players that played those horns. It feels like a “mark of excellence “.

Must be a bit like X player played on this horn, this mouthpiece etc

Yes, saxophone players are vanity. When we are talking about rolled tone holes on old American horns we can called them Conn because it was just Conn who made horns with rolled tone holes. When a person says an Indiana by Martin is the same as a Committee use to think ..... not just vanity .... also lazy.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I asked a saxophone designer, who sold saxes with and without rolled tone holes, why he offered both: "I earn more money selling saxes with rolled tone holes. The buyers are paying the extra money".

That's interesting - if somewhat disappointing. I mean, it's good for folks like me who get paid to put things right, but it perhaps shows that most players simply don't bother with the technical aspects of the things they're spending their money on.

 

[greenstripe]

But do they, really ?

I think (and this is only opinion, not backed by any research) that potential buyers of new saxophones might be swayed by marketing descriptions about "vintage this and that" and "based on the great old American saxophones" and even "large bore, just like ....".

But I don't imagine a significant proportion of buyers know what "rolled tone holes" are, how they differ from "tone hole rings" or whether they even affect the sound of the instrument.

So what I mean is that current makers can appeal to any vintage leanings in a sector of the market for new saxophones, without ever having to worry about the difficulty and expense of rolled tone holes (real or pseudo).

Writing a few words is so much easier than engineering design and manufacturing.

Rhys

Yes because the marketing tells them and the sales staff in the shops that sell them and online 'reviews' videos say:

"look at the extra care that's been taken in adding these features that the competition doesn't have"

Regardless of whether it's of any real benefit.

 

[thomsax]

That's interesting - if somewhat disappointing. I mean, it's good for folks like me who get paid to put things right, but it perhaps shows that most players simply don't bother with the technical aspects of the things they're spending their money on.

The saxes were on stands side by side. Could be played side by side. The seller was honest: No difference when it came to the sound/tone ....... although the wanted the saxes with "rolled tones".

It's the same with cars. Double decor exhaust pipes, á la American muscle cars like Cuda, Charger, on a SUV hybrid car ...... the price for this was 22 000 s e k!!!!

 

[mizmar]

Questions arising...

As the (real, not SI) unit of pressure is pound per square inch (PSI)
Of course

...that same force on a tonehole rim that's twice the width will result in a halving of the pressure at the pad face.

So, has anyone tried to build a horn with V or ∆ shaped town holes or rings?
Not only more sealing power for the same spring/finger pressure; but maybe less tacky so lighter to open.