Playing the saxophone Does an 'X' instead of a note-head mean a ghost/grace note?

[cappers]

Does an 'X' instead of a note-head mean a ghost/grace note?

I thought a smaller sized note with a slash before another note was a ghost note.

I read somewhere X can mean staccato or tenuto or a ghost. I thought staccato and tenuto are indicated with a dot or dash?

I not talking about a double sharp blocky X

Thank you.

 

[mizmar]

quarto puntato.

It's a good find. But I've never seen that used in an English language music text as a technical term. Really it's just "dotted quarter" in Italian.

 

[ghostler]

Although a staccato note (half the length) has a dot added over or under the note, It would seem confusing to refer to it as a dotted note, (dot after the note) which conventionally means add half the note value.

True, dot location meaning differs depending on location. Simply saying a note is dotted usually implies as you say. Dot above / below implies staccato and we never refer to it as a dotted note.

The other question implying no Italian for a dotted note (duration), seems today we've drifted some, using more English terms than Italian. I've noticed that with more recent community band pieces, arrangements compared wtih older charts, say of pop music. Example, using "more slowly" instead of "molto rallentando", etc.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Meanwhile... I'l raise you a crotchet to a quarter note, a minim to a half note...

How 'long' (or maybe short) a staccato note is era and genre dependent, and also performance environment. I've sung and played in some very large ecclesiastical building with very significant reverb times (as is over ten seconds). I'd agree in general it's half the notated value but it's not an absolute.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It’s also worth noting that although staccato can be interpreted as half the length, it can just mean detached or shorter. I find it totally pointless to write a staccato half note.

EDIT: Tenor Viol beat me to it with a better and more detailed post.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Getting back to ghost notes, it would be good if we saw (and heard) more of the example given in OP. Depending on context it could either be an intentionally ghosted note or just a “fluffed” note that didn’t quite speak properly.

 

[ghostler]

I find it totally pointless to write a staccato half note.

It's once in while and in say cut time like a march. What's legal is not necessarily practical. I should have been a lawyer.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Although a staccato note (detached, shortened or half the length) has a dot added over or under the note, It would seem confusing to refer to it as a dotted note, (dot after the note) which conventionally means add half the note value.

Agreed. “Dotted note” has always been terminology for a (dotted) lengthened note; whereas staccato Edit: This didn't upload all of my sentence:

"Whereas staccato is an articulation"

 

[cappers]

Getting back to ghost notes, it would be good if we saw (and heard) more of the example given in OP. Depending on context it could either be an intentionally ghosted note or just a “fluffed” note that didn’t quite speak properly.

Here is the original (?) transcription of Sonny Rollins' solo on TM (bar 14 onwards)

and another one with ghost /grace notes:

To hear it these are versions from Tenor Madness

and The Complete Prestige Recordings

Thank you.

 

[Pete Thomas]

and another one with ghost /grace notes:

Yes so that's probably the transcriber guessing what the note would be if it wasn't ghosted (or fluffed). Difficulot with the one on the Cdim chord as there are "wrong" notes for the chord anyway (E natural)

 

[Pete Effamy]

Having listened to a bit of the solo in track 1 above, the more common articulation is what a mate of mine called "dead tonguing" - which in my book is different to ghosting. These notes are muffled (like ghosted notes) but are louder, maybe less muffled. Still produced by placing the tongue on the reed as you continue to blow (maybe somewhat hard?). In some ways it's a "crap staccato" - staccato with no clean end and certainly not particularly short.

Sanborn does it a lot in the album Songs From The Night Before. Listen to the scale running up at the start of his solo @ 2:35 or so. He actually uses it all over the place.

View: https://youtu.be/jSwPJcZucdw?si=5MXTRMzP8XZq1xji

 

[rhysonsax]

As a notation, is there a recognised difference between the meaning of an "X" notehead and a notehead in brackets ? To me they both indicate some sort of ghosted note (deliberate or not) where the pitch is heard or guessed.

Rhys

 

[Pete Thomas]

As a notation, is there a recognised difference between the meaning of an "X" notehead and a notehead in brackets ? To me they both indicate some sort of ghosted note (deliberate or not) where the pitch is heard or guessed.

Rhys

Good question, I've probably used both.

There should be because there is a difference between an intentionally (the effect) and unintentionally (the flub) ghosted note.

 

[cappers]

Yes so that's probably the transcriber guessing what the note would be if it wasn't ghosted (or fluffed). Difficulot with the one on the Cdim chord as there are "wrong" notes for the chord anyway (E natural)

Thanks.
I did wonder about the Eb over C7 but was a bit wary of displaying my ignorance.
You wrote Cdim which is C Eb Gb A but as the chord is C7 C E G Bb, I assumed the Eb was reflecting the head which was E- C A C | Eb- C A C | E- C A C | C-D-C-A.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I did wonder about the Eb over C7 but was a bit wary of displaying my ignorance.

Eb on a C7 is fine. It’s a b10 or #9 enharmonically.

You wrote Cdim which is C Eb Gb A but as the chord is C7 C E G Bb

I wrote Cdim because the music showed C diminished 7 (over G) not C7 over G

so is very odd to have an E in the melody. Hence I suggested a wrong note. But it may just be the transcription that is wrong either in the melody or the chords.

 

[mrblackbat]

That’s a grace note.

It’s an acciaccatura specifically. The line through means that the main note is played on the beat. No line would be an appogiatura where the smaller note is played on the beat.

 

[cappers]

I wrote Cdim because the music showed C diminished 7 (over G) not C7 over G

Apologies, I was looking at the wrong bars.
Got it, can see the Cdim7/G with the E natural now.
Thanks all

 

[turf3]

The length of staccato notes depends on the style of the piece as well as the nature of the passage. Furthermore, different types of music have different expectations about articulations and inflections. Jazz music written according to typical jazz usage has different interpretations of rhythm than classical music written according to typical classical usage.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It’s an acciaccatura specifically. The line through means that the main note is played on the beat. No line would be an appogiatura where the smaller note is played on the beat.

Mmmm… not sure about that. In my experience jazz / non classical does not differentiate between appogiaturas and acciaccaturas - they’re just grace notes - as in “crushed notes”. Very different to the “proper “ appogiatura in classical music which takes half the value of the note next to it malarkey.

 

[GCinCT]

It's a good find. But I've never seen that used in an English language music text as a technical term. Really it's just "dotted quarter" in Italian.

You are correct. That term is only used by Italian speakers. In American English, it's a dotted quarter, and in the UK, dotted crochet.

 

[mrblackbat]

Mmmm… not sure about that. In my experience jazz / non classical does not differentiate between appogiaturas and acciaccaturas - they’re just grace notes - as in “crushed notes”. Very different to the “proper “ appogiatura in classical music which takes half the value of the note next to it malarkey.

But the line through it indicates it is an acciaccatura (literally crush note as you say). Without the line it would be an appoggiatura.

I do have big band charts with both in, so knowing the difference is useful.