Theory & Impro Do we really need theory?

[Alice]

Er, just to add a bit of balance could I point out that we have learned today that Bernie despite several decades of attempting to play tunes and improvise is still:

a. Learning how to get through tunes flying by the seat of his pants and hoping something sounds OK. That is guessing what should come next. NOT jazz improvisation in the context that most jazz player knows it to mean.

and

b. A very naughty boy who doesn't know his scales AT ALL!

This is funny... I'm reminded of Sesame Street..!

 

[Alice]

Maybe....

My tutor encourages me to drink wine and play the sax.

 

[jimmylh]

My tutor encourages me to drink wine and play the sax.

I encourage my listeners to drink lots of wine.

 

[BigMartin]

My tutor encourages me to drink wine and play the sax.

FWIW, I strongly disagree with that advice. Two main reasons:

1. Not good to link the two activities if you intend to spend much time playing
2. You'll learn a lot more from your practice if you have a clear head.

If it's a matter of relaxing, you need to learn to do that without chemical assistance.

I encourage my listeners to drink lots of wine.

This one makes sense though (as long as they don't start throwing things).

 

[David Dorning]

FWIW, I strongly disagree with that advice. Two main reasons:

1. Not good to link the two activities if you intend to spend much time playing
2. You'll learn a lot more from your practice if you have a clear head.

If it's a matter of relaxing, you need to learn to do that without chemical assistance.

I think Matthew Stone is combining wine and sax quite successfully here

View: http://youtu.be/Jc94EFd7SHI

 

[Bernie]

My strongest disagreement is with the notion that playing through listening and understanding music through study of music theory is an "either or" proposition.

You still haven't got it jbtsax. You can only understand music through listening. All the information is in the sound.

 

[Bernie]

My strongest disagreement is with the notion that playing through listening and understanding music through study of music theory is an "either or" proposition. Neither one is more important than the other.

Listening is more important than theory. You can't do it without listening. You can do it without theory.

 

[Alice]

FWIW, I strongly disagree with that advice. Two main reasons:

1. Not good to link the two activities if you intend to spend much time playing
2. You'll learn a lot more from your practice if you have a clear head.

If it's a matter of relaxing, you need to learn to do that without chemical assistance.

This one makes sense though (as long as they don't start throwing things).

Yes I agree. I am in general a relaxed person when I play but my lessons were early in the morning and I was hyped up on coffee.

 

[ProfJames]

You still haven't got it jbtsax. You can only understand music through listening. All the information is in the sound.

Ha ha ha! I knew one day you would be told @jbtsax !!! All those years hard work, practice and experience gone to waste!

 

[trimmy]

You still haven't got it jbtsax. You can only understand music through listening. All the information is in the sound.

Say again didn't hear you, my hearing isn't as good as it used to be

 

[Nick Wyver]

You can only understand music through listening.

There are many ways to understand music. Listening is one. It is not the only one.

 

[Bernie]

There are many ways to understand music. Listening is one. It is not the only one.

It's the only one that works on its own.

 

[Dibbs]

You still haven't got it jbtsax. You can only understand music through listening. All the information is in the sound.

No, you are the one who doesn't get it. Not everyone is as talented as you. Most of us need the theory as well as our ears.

 

[Nick Wyver]

It's the only one that works on its own.

Until you want to write a symphony.

 

[Jeanette]

We seem to be going round in circles a little now, Bernie if I promise to keep plugging away at playing by ear, will you learn the major scales and arpeggios in the circle of 5ths?

I asked my tutor to record some simple tunes and give me the starting note and scale.

I attempted London's Burning last night and got all but the last line. I seem to hit a wall like I did with Twinkle and had to look it up. I do find it very difficult.

Frere Jacques next 🙂

Jx

 

[Bernie]

No, you are the one who doesn't get it. Not everyone is as talented as you. Most of us need the theory as well as our ears.

I think that's a mistake Dibbs, I think you've been misled.

This is worth very careful reading: Learning to improvise - introduction | IWasDoingAllRight

 

[Dibbs]

Can you hear what's going on here? Does the animation give you a greater appreciation of what Bach did?

 

[Jez Watson]

You still haven't got it jbtsax. You can only understand music through listening. All the information is in the sound.

Listening is more important than theory. You can't do it without listening. You can do it without theory.

I think i understand why this is causing a lot of confusion and misunderstanding between various points of view, and i think to a large degree it is part of the way we learn and the way music, particularly Jazz is taught in the "educational establishments", i can say this as i am to some degree a product of this system.
I could go on and write a very long winded attempt to diagnose this, but in short, what Bernie is saying is the essence of it, he in my opinion is right, its just hard to fully accept as most, including myself need to have at some point, help to understand things which means we need "theory" to help unlock aspects of what we are hearing and it helps us assimilate and digest what we are trying to annalise in something we are studying such as a great solo or composition. But it is all there in the sound, "theory" is the description of what that sound is , so without the sound there is nothing, blimey, im goin on a bit haha, got to go to work, im writing this in a rush, dont know if this makes any sense!? I would ad though that we all at some point need when our "ears" are struggling a help to rationalise things and put some kind of order to things, maybe its in our nature for most of us to want that, to make sense? In the end the important thing to me is the beauty of those things which are simple and complex within music, and which we want to assimilate and understand, and it would be great to be able to make those sounds ourselves.

 

[Bernie]

We seem to be going round in circles a little now, Bernie if I promise to keep plugging away at playing by ear, will you learn the major scales and arpeggios in the circle of 5ths?

Why would I want to do that?

 

[Jeanette]

Why would I want to do that?

It might help your improvising 🙂

Jx