Tech/maintenance Cleaning Verdigris Residue from Pads Specifically

[Keshr]

I have a Yamaha 21 practice alto that I haven’t used in over a year due to various circumstances. I got it out last night, and going through my pre-practice routine I noticed minor verdigris on some of the closed key tone hole rims and pads. The horn was checked by a reputable shop before it was stored, given a clean bill of health, and hadn’t been played since. It lives in modern case, not its original shag carpeted one.

I’m finding lots of great help on removing the green gunk from the metal, and suggestions for additional preventative treatment if needed (never had this pre-storage). I’ve cleaned up the tone holes with lemon, and I know I’ll have to do it again since the pads still have green on them.

1. Why is the problem only on some of the upper tone holes? The larger closed ones are fine.

2. My quest now is to get the verdigris off the pads and out of the impressions. Cleaning paper didn’t do much. The pads are recent so I don’t want to replace them out of hand, or damage them trying to clean them.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Curing sticky pads

How to cure sticking pads on a woodwind instrument.

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

 

[jonf]

For cleaning pads, the best stuff is lighter fluid. I tend to use the Swan brand as it's widely available in the UK. It's made from solvent naptha, a refined distillate of petroleum. Ronsonol is another brand.

Edit - Stephen (who is more qualified to give such advice than I am) beat me to it.

 

[turf3]

I don't know the difference between charcoal lighter fluid and cigarette lighter fluid, but I used the former to clean off some badly verdigris'd pads a few days ago and so far (maybe two weeks) they haven't turned sticky. I'm holding off judgement, but it might be that the stuff is light enough to have largely evaporated before the residue could polymerize.

Lemon oil, on the other hand, as recommended by Famous Tech, absolutely DID polymerize and turn sticky and that horn still has sticky pads after 25 years or so.

 

[Grumps]

Curing sticky pads

How to cure sticking pads on a woodwind instrument.

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

"Some people..."

Having a good laugh seeing that there. Old times.

 

[skeller047]

Another vote for naptha (lighter fluid) here. I do suggest taking the keys off the horn and using a cotton bud (AKA Q-Tip) - gently - to do the cleaning.

I suspect charcoal lighter fluid is a form of kerosene, I'm not a chemist so I don't know how that differs from naptha. They both stink and are not good to breathe, so make sure you have good ventilation when using either. And keep them away from flames...

Good luck!

 

[Stephen Howard]

I don't know the difference between charcoal lighter fluid and cigarette lighter fluid, but I used the former to clean off some badly verdigris'd pads a few days ago and so far (maybe two weeks) they haven't turned sticky. I'm holding off judgement, but it might be that the stuff is light enough to have largely evaporated before the residue could polymerize.

Lemon oil, on the other hand, as recommended by Famous Tech, absolutely DID polymerize and turn sticky and that horn still has sticky pads after 25 years or so.

Neither do I! When I did the original test for the article I used every single domestic solvent I could get my hands on (including a while bunch of pricey 'laundry stain removal' solvents).
Bottom line - naptha was the only one that did the job...and wasn't likely to give you cancer or boils.
And then I discovered that what was 'XYZ spirit' over here was something else elsewhere - at which point my patience ran out. I figured that I'd done the heavy lifting, someone else could do the tranlation.

Lemon oil is tricky because it's often not what you think it is. It's more of a trade name than a description.

In any event, CLF is as cheap as chips, widely available, reasonably safe to use, works very well and is non-damaging to saxophone finishes or pads. What more could you ask for?

 

[Stephen Howard]

"Some people..."

Having a good laugh seeing that there. Old times.

Very old...times.

 

[Keshr]

Curing sticky pads

How to cure sticking pads on a woodwind instrument.

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

Very interesting, Steve!

I’ve already gently tried the following papers: $1 (I keep a few brand new ones in my sax and clarinet cases for cleaning pads already), and high cloth content art paper (a bit of soft tooth to it, also great for drying). I did try a soft pipe cleaner, and a dry cotton swab, but they just smudged the green around..

 

[Keshr]

Lemon oil, on the other hand, as recommended by Famous Tech, absolutely DID polymerize and turn sticky and that horn still has sticky pads after 25 years or so.

I used lemon juice. Did my best to keep it away from the pads using cling wrap over them. I thought the acid would damage the leather. No green at all on the metal now, and I did leave the pads wrapped to try and keep the green off the tone holes.

My mom used to use a layer of catsup (ketchup) on jewelry and brassware to clean the green.

 

[Ivan]

My mom used to use a layer of catsup (ketchup) on jewelry and brassware to clean the green.

The prevailing theme is anything acid ought to do it

E.g. Coca-Cola

 

[Colin the Bear]

Coca cola has phosphoric acid. Very effective for fixing rusty chrome work. It turns rust black and seals it.

 

[PigSquealer]

Naphtha works because it’s oily and penetrates. I’ve had some luck on disassembled bodies with two product treatment.
Naphtha and oil. Give it time to soak and soften. Clean / degrease with isopropyl.
Finish with something that blocks oxygen.
Your sax was probably well cleaned prior to storing. This exposed areas ( open keys) to oxygen. The vertigris is a form of copper oxidation.

 

[JayeNM]

I don't consider naptha oily, particularly....

I think it is the go-to for PADS because it is so quick-evaporating. Anything which is not, it is gonna soak in to leather and possibly felt and sit in there, damp, for a while.
Probably not what you want.....(?)

Also, most of the time it doesn't DISCOLOR the leather. Other solutions such as paint thinners and the like, do.

Is charcoal fluid quick-evaporating ?
Does it change the pad color or seem to negatively effect the leather in any way ? I dunno....

 

[turf3]

I don't consider naptha oily, particularly....

I think it is the go-to for PADS because it is so quick-evaporating. Anything which is not, it is gonna soak in to leather and possibly felt and sit in there, damp, for a while.
Probably not what you want.....(?)

Also, most of the time it doesn't DISCOLOR the leather. Other solutions such as paint thinners and the like, do.

Is charcoal fluid quick-evaporating ?
Does it change the pad color or seem to negatively effect the leather in any way ? I dunno....

Seemed to evaporate quickly, and it did not discolor the pads (at least, not any more than they already are). I can't say whether it adversely affected the leather.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Seemed to evaporate quickly, and it did not discolor the pads (at least, not any more than they already are). I can't say whether it adversely affected the leather.

Many, many years ago someone 'in the other place' suggested that CLF (naptha) would dry the leather out and ruin the pads.
This had never been my experience - so I set up a test. A collection of assorted pads, new and old, which got a regular heavy dose of CLF. It's been more than ten years now. They're still on a shelf by my bench, they still get the odd soaking - and they're exactly as they were all those years ago.
Some of the folks here may well have seen them.

 

[PigSquealer]

I don't consider naptha oily, particularly....

I think it is the go-to for PADS because it is so quick-evaporating. Anything which is not, it is gonna soak in to leather and possibly felt and sit in there, damp, for a while.
Probably not what you want.....(?)

Also, most of the time it doesn't DISCOLOR the leather. Other solutions such as paint thinners and the like, do.

Is charcoal fluid quick-evaporating ?
Does it change the pad color or seem to negatively effect the leather in any way ? I dunno....

Seemed to evaporate quickly, and it did not discolor the pads (at least, not any more than they already are). I can't say whether it adversely affected the leather.

Oily wasn’t the best description. It doesn’t evaporate quickly like alcohol or acetone. Doesn’t often stain as mentioned. The age and condition of the pads determines if the solvent has any impact.

The issue testing charcoal lighter fluid is product inconsistency. From brand to brand the chemical blends change. This also changes regionally.

Warning to anyone attempting to use solvents. Some can melt plastic boosters and lacquer/ coatings.

 

[cappers]

'Naphtha' are hydrocarbons with 5-12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Cigarette lighter fluid is a 'light' naphtha - a mix of hydrocarbons with 5 to 6 carbon atoms per molecule.

Charcoal lighter fluid is a 'heavy' naphtha, based on white spirits (US 'mineral spirits') with 7 to 12 carbon atoms so 'heavier' and less volatile than ciggy lighter fluid. It may have other constituents such as alcohol.

Ether is a great degreasing solvent and is used in the leather industry to clean and finish the leather. I don't know how it might affect pads or more the shellac?

 

[PigSquealer]

'Naphtha' are hydrocarbons with 5-12 carbon atoms per molecule.

Cigarette lighter fluid is a 'light' naphtha - a mix of hydrocarbons with 5 to 6 carbon atoms per molecule.

Charcoal lighter fluid is a 'heavy' naphtha, based on white spirits (US 'mineral spirits') with 7 to 12 carbon atoms so 'heavier' and less volatile than ciggy lighter fluid. It may have other constituents such as alcohol.

Ether is a great degreasing solvent and is used in the leather industry to clean and finish the leather. I don't know how it might affect pads or more the shellac?

I’ve yet to experience any reaction of petroleum products attacking 100% natural shellac.

The US has experienced many EPA changes in the last fifteen years. Especially in California.
Either, MEK, Naphtha, gum turpentine, mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, chlorinated solvents are all gone. Not sure about lacquer thinner. Acetone or blends of acetone are the choice of one. Naphtha ( Cigarette lighter fluid) is available in 5oz to quart containers but expensive. I’ll look into charcoal lighter fluid. Need to find one without ethanol or alcohol.

 

[turf3]

I’ve yet to experience any reaction of petroleum products attacking 100% natural shellac.

The US has experienced many EPA changes in the last fifteen years. Especially in California.
Either, MEK, Naphtha, gum turpentine, mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, chlorinated solvents are all gone. Not sure about lacquer thinner. Acetone or blends of acetone are the choice of one. Naphtha ( Cigarette lighter fluid) is available in 5oz to quart containers but expensive. I’ll look into charcoal lighter fluid. Need to find one without ethanol or alcohol.

Time for a road trip to NV or AZ. Pick up some Thompson's Water Seal while you're at it