Chords, where d'you start?

[phil_edwards]

Silly question really, but I'm trying to put just the chords together (in Finale) to make a simple backing for some numbers I'm working on. But, not being used to chords, where on the stave should I put them?

I know the notes that make up the chord (and doing this is good practice at getting them fixed in your brain), but faced with a chord where would I place, say, the root? Around middle C-ish? Basically, if you're a piano player and are given the chords, where on the keyboard do you play it?

And do I then just move the next chord up or down corresponding to the way the melody moves?

I've never had to think about this before. It's damn good practice to think about it by working it out 'backwards'. Should get a much better grasp of how it fits together by the end...

thanks in advance,

Phil

 

[losaavedra]

Piano music is usually written using the treble clef for the right hand, where E above middle C is the first of the stave lines going up, and in the bass clef for the left hand, where the top line is the A below middle C going down. Your best plan might be to get hold of any reasonably straightforward bit of sheet music for piano where you already know the way the tune goes (something by the Beatles maybe) and copy the way it's done there. Often sheet for popular songs also has the mnemonics for chords (Cm, Eb7, etc.) written above where they appear on the bass clef, even sometimes the block diagrams for guitar fingering too.This link (alto fingering for concert pitch notes in bass and treble clefs) might help:

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k56/losaavedra/MUSIC/SAXCRIB1.jpg

Normally the pair of staves (treble and bass) aren't drawn as close together as I've shown them, but it at least emphasises where middle C occurs in each.

Chords can be placed in either stave. Gymnopedie No. 1 (Erik Satie) for example has most of the chords written at the bottom of the treble clef, sometimes played with the left hand and sometimes the right, with a single-note-per-bar in the bass clef running along the bottom. Chords are notated as a stack of two, three or four notes, usually bunched together with the intention that they're all played at the same time. Chords could however be played as low-end arpeggios below the melody. An easy to follow book that may be worth your while getting is The AB Guide to Music Theory by Eric Taylor. Chapter 8 discusses triads and chords. Hope this helps ... I'm not particularly hot on theory so others here are likely to have something more useful to say!

 

[phil_edwards]

Thanks Mike, I've got the AB books, and know about chords, but as I've never had to think about them (not from a piano players perspective) my main question is how high or low should I pitch them, relative to the Alto part that I'm playing.

I've written them all closed (i.e the chord notes bunched close together), all on the treble clef, but low down the stave, as I guess the piano would be playing below the lead part. Listening to it, I think I need to drop the pitch a bit lower still, perhaps onto the bass clef.

Come on piano players - how the hell do you decide what octave to pitch the chords if all you've got is a chord notation ( D A E7 etc) and a melody?

Not too technical please, just looking for a guide.

I'll dig out something with the full sax and piano score and have a look at how that's laid out for ideas. Good practice this, helps me understand the music a lot better by having to think about the other parts!

ta, Phil

 

[philthd]

deleted - simon wrote it better before i finished posting


re-edited to add

simon, whats that book aimed at teachng piano voicings to non-pianists?

i had a brief borrow of that from someone once and found it of some use

 

[colin_]

The above advice is all good - i.e. stay in the middle of the piano as much as possible. But it's a big subject and the best advice to get you going and understand what to do, is to get hold of some piano music in the style you are working on and take cues from there.

Voice leading is the other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet (EDIT: Just noticed Simon's reference to 'smoothness'!!) and it works on piano just as it would if the chords were played as separate parts by a big band or orchestra. So rather than jumping from chord to chord you should be trying to move each note to it's nearest neighbour in each following chord. Generally speaking, this will mean that the seventh will resolve to the third in the next chord (i.e. in the case of G7 to C Maj7, the F will move down to the E) and the 3rd to the 7th. The bass is the only part that might jump around a bit, generally by emphasising the root notes.

If you're going to find yourself doing this a lot, here's another nod to Band In A Box - Just type in the chord names and it's all done for you and played back in the style of your choice. You can even record your melody and print out the resulting lead sheets straight from the programme.

Good luck!

 

[colin_]

Sorry Phil, just coming back to the original question with a little addendum...

Very generally speaking, don't make the lowest note of your right hand voicing any lower than the E below middle C (the bass/root note should generally stick to the bass clef region). Below that it starts to sound a little muddy but let your ears be the final judge.

This will mean that rather than moving to a chord with the 3rd on the low Eb (i.e. B7) you change the voicing so that the 7th (A) is on the bottom, which moves you back up towards the middle of the keyboard.

Always have either the 3rd or the seventh as the lowest note in the right hand, as this keeps any 'unstable' semitone clashes in the middle of the chord rather than on the exposed outer parts - particularly noticeable when you're incorporating 9ths in the harmony.

Hope that hasn't got too technical - I'm sure you can manage. 😉

Good luck!

 

[phil_edwards]

Wow thanks Simon, PhilthD and Colin. Great stuff.

I love it when these threads develop. I know I said keep it simple, but these answers have given me something to work on (good for late evening when it's too late to play the sax and I get my little keyboard out!)

Ta very much, Phil

 

[jools]

There's also a great little book called "All the jazz chords you'll ever need" which has every permutation of every key written out around middle C. And it's for pianists.


SI- -you have this book?

 

[jools]

aye, point taken. "Here's a dictionary -go speak French" HA.

That was the only one I could think of on the spot, but I knew you'd know better.

"approaches to playing" are the way to go.

 

[dave_mainland]

http://www.telacommunications.com/nutshell/music/keyboard.htm

Gets lots of chords inversions whatever, I prob. found it here. tell me what you think.
Dave

 

[Simon]

Not much. This is what yer get when a comp programmer cleverly invents a prog that 'appears' to be musical but lacks even a basic jazz pianists experience of voicings:

try Dm7 ->G7 ->C major 7 as chords and press 'Invert' several times

The first display will be root position - ie what the chord notes are as if read out of a book; the rest are limited jumbles of 7ths / 3rds and in the case of Cmajor7, they'll throw in D the 9th. You'll get - Dm7 as F-D-D-F, A-D-F-C... not as D-C-F, cos in the program it'll have to be a 4 note chord, even though it sounds fine (even better) without the 5th.

Probably all possible, but as good as a reference book.

Clever voicings depend on small shifts in chord notes on the keyboard. eg b7th of a m7 chord to the 3rd of the dominant chord; the b5 of the minor 7b5 chord held over as the b9 of the 7b9 chord.

Keepin it simple but sounding impressive - that's the secret!

Simon

dave mainland wrote:
http://www.telacommunications.com/nutshell/music/keyboard.htm

Gets lots of chords inversions whatever, I prob. found it here. tell me what you think.
Dave

 

[philthd]

wolfram - who in mathmatica made one of the most powerful softwares i have ever used - do a chord voicing software. its even tells you how consonant od disonant each is.

never used it - probably never will - but it looks much much better than that one

 

[Linky Lee]

One thing tobear in mind is counter movement. If you melody is steadily rising it's niceto arrange the chords in inversions to make them move steadily lower on the keyboard. Especialy in cadences.

 

[phil_edwards]

Thanks Linky, will bear it in mind.

When you only ever think about your music (as I have in the past) it's really instructive to think about the other parts and how they all fit together. Adds another dimension to just listening to the whole band.

I'm enjoying this bit of mental exercise.

Phil

 

[philthd]

i often heard it said that being able to arrange is a much better yardstick of musicality than being able to play - an innate feel of the intricate interactions of differrent parts is a real talent