Beginner impro Chord extensions

[BigMartin]

But isn't Cb7 enharmonic B7 ?

Ah, I see your point. I feel a bit better about it now. It would have to be C(b7) or some such wihich wiould be a bit cumbersome.

 

[Colin the Bear]

All things considered, describing sounds with letters, it works quite well, as a stand alone system. It's when it starts interacting with other rubbish in the attic of my mind.

 

[jbtsax]

But all the other chord extensions refer to the root of the chord, not the key of the piece . And C7 isn't always in the key of F. Sometimes it's a secondary dominant in the key of Bb. And sometimes it's the tonic chord of a C blues.

Even as a "secondary dominant" in the key of Bb the C7 still behaves like the dominant 7th chord in the key of F albeit in transitory fashion. What does the C7 tonic typically resolve to in a blues progression???

I see what you are saying that the symbols for chord extensions generally describe the interval above the root of the chord, but this must be viewed in the context of what step of the scale is the root of the chord. 🙂

 

[fibracell]

just accept the symbols for what they are - nomenclature - a method of communicating the harmonic progression. More important to know how the chords sound and in the case of C7 how the tritone resolves to F, or how it resolves to anything else.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But only because we're not used to it. I get that it's not going to change now, but if we were starting again, Cb7 woulgd get my vote,

How about Db7? would it be Db with a 7 or D with a b7. Very very confusing.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I am looking for exercises for saxophone to get hands on chord extensions.
I m on ex 4-03 in taming the sax vol 3, which introduces b9 of dominant but it is getting complicated for me.

I do hope you were aware that Taming The Saxophone vol III is advertised as intermediate/advanced. These are all exercises I developed while in my 2nd or 3rd year at music college.

There is in my opinion no harm in beginners having a go, but the deeper harmonic implications will probably only be apparent to people who have done a fair bit of jazz theory study.

 

[jbtsax]

Something interesting I read in Mark Levine's book
page 473 These are myths that are simply untrue " . . . You have to have both the 3rd and 7th in a dominant 7th chord." page 474 " once any alteration is made to a V chord . . (and) . . . the 3rd and 7th lose much of their importance. . . there is nothing sacred about playing the 3rd or 7th on dominant 7th chords . . ."

I know he's talking about alterations but I've noticed it in "Pop" tunes where the 7 chord is indicated but the 7 note is not played either by the rhythm section or the soloist.

Any comments on this from the theoreticians. I'm an ear player so it seems kind of weird to me.

Saying the 3rd and 7th are important in the harmony is not the same as saying "you have to have them". I was taught that the 3rd and 7th are what "define" the chord. If the third is major, it is a major chord. If the third is minor, it is a minor chord. The flatted 7th creates a tritone as Aldevis pointed out and sets up a harmonic tension. The major 7th is a "sweet" dissonance, but the chord is at rest. The flatted 7th "pulls" down to the 3rd of the tonic chord and the major 3rd pulls? up to the root of the tonic chord.

Perhaps what Mark Levine is getting at is there are other ways to create tension in a dominant 7th chord besides the interval between the 3rd and 7th. Those are the extensions +9, b9, +5(b13), b5(+11). That is true, but it does not negate the importance of the 3rd and 7th defining the chord that has the tension in the first place.

 

[BigMartin]

How about Db7? would it be Db with a 7 or D with a b7. Very very confusing.

Yes, spike pointed that out too. I surrender 😳.

 

[spike]

No that is not what I meant - Db7 is Db7 basta. One half tone below D is either Db or C# depending on what key you're in. Cb7 can be B7 - the half tone below C is B.
I'm so glad to have been born and blessed with a decent set of buccanears.

 

[Chris]

I surrender 😳.

Would that be by "Rainbow" Martin?? Great song..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Please folks remember this is the beginners forum. The question is about extensions, so of course we discuss extensions but try to keep it as basic as possible, any more complex discussion please carry on in the "split off" thread here:

http://cafesaxophone.com/threads/chord-extensions-a-bit-more-advanced.16180/

 

[BigMartin]

I surrender 😳.

Would that be by "Rainbow" Martin?? Great song.

The short answer is "no". The long one is "****, no".

( I nicked that line from Stephen Fry).