Beginner Chord extensions

[agganitk]

I am looking for exercises for saxophone to get hands on chord extensions.
I m on ex 4-03 in taming the sax vol 3, which introduces b9 of dominant but it is getting complicated for me.

ADMIN EDIT:

I have created a new thread and moved some posts with answers to this which were getting a bit too complex for the beginners section.

Please answer here with beginners stuff, and/or on the new advanced thread for the more complex stuff

 

[Jay]

I was getting all fazed by this stuff, it was really frying my brain. So I went right back to making it very simple (how I like things!)

We can both count - though I have to admit I still do on my fingers.

So if you're starting with C, the 1, 3 and 5, is C, E and G - the basic triad chord. 7 is B, b7 is Bb (which is the one meant when the chord say C7). 9th is D, b9 is Db (or C#). 11 is F, 13 is A and so on.

I just played around with the sounds after that. What does the it sound like if I doodle around with the 1, 3, 5, b7 notes. What does it sound like if I add the 9, and so on. What are my favourite sounds (b5 and 9 at the moment).

It really helps if you can get to sit at a keyboard for a while and play with these chords, cos it's so easy to find and see the notes, and you can actually play all the notes at the same time and hear what it sounds like.

 

[kevgermany]

b9 is Db (or C#).

To be pedantic, it's not C# in this context and shouldn't be thought of as such. As it's a flattened note, you show it as the flattened version of the 9th in the key/scale you're in. That also means that if the 9th is already a flat, it must be notated as a double flat when you flatten it.

E.G. 9th of Db is Eb. If you're adding the flat 9th to a chord, it's Ebb, not D.

 

[Jay]

To be pedantic, it's not C# in this context and shouldn't be thought of as such. As it's a flattened note, you show it as the flattened version of the 9th in the key/scale you're in. That also means that if the 9th is already a flat, it must be notated as a double flat when you flatten it.

I know, but when I'm playing, my brain-fingers connection is better if I think C# rather than Db at the moment. I'll get to the point where I don't need to translate I expect.

 

[kevgermany]

I know, but when I'm playing, my brain-fingers connection is better if I think C# rather than Db at the moment. I'll get to the point where I don't need to translate I expect.

Mustn't. It'll really mess you around later when you look at harmonic structures in pieces.

 

[Colin the Bear]

As soon as I start thinking I fluff it. I listen to what the band are playing and what I'm playing. All the thinking bit goes on at the preparation stage.

I heard a jazz bassist say " you're only ever a semitone away with a "bum note"

 

[Colin the Bear]

I only learn the ones I like.

 

[Jay]

I was getting all fazed by this stuff, it was really frying my brain. So I went right back to making it very simple (how I like things!)

We can both count - though I have to admit I still do on my fingers.

So if you're starting with C, the 1, 3 and 5, is C, E and G - the basic triad chord. 7 is B, b7 is Bb (which is the one meant when the chord say C7). 9th is D, b9 is Db (or C#). 11 is F, 13 is A and so on.

I just played around with the sounds after that. What does the it sound like if I doodle around with the 1, 3, 5, b7 notes. What does it sound like if I add the 9, and so on. What are my favourite sounds (b5 and 9 at the moment).

It really helps if you can get to sit at a keyboard for a while and play with these chords, cos it's so easy to find and see the notes, and you can actually play all the notes at the same time and hear what it sounds like.

I know this is all too simplistic, but hopefully it'll help those of you who teach, to hear how a newbie found a way to start coping with these ideas. And I hope one day jbtsax, aldevis and fibracell's posts will make sense the first time I read them 🙂

 

[Colin the Bear]

One of those light bulb moments was noticing the alternate white notes, starting with C. First four 1 3 5 7 give you Cmaj7. Keep going with alternate white notes 9 11 13 and we end up back on C. Dm7 sitting on a Cmaj7. I wondered why they sounded so good and why 9 11 13 are important harmonically and why Dorian works.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I have moved some posts to a new thread is they were a bit complex for the beginners section.

 

[BigMartin]

7 is B, b7 is Bb (which is the one meant when the chord say C7)

I still find that really annoying.

 

[jbtsax]

I still find that really annoying.

That is an interesting comment. Would you prefer C7 to refer to the Cmaj7 which is also written CΔ? If that is the case, how would you prefer the dominant 7th to be written? Cb7 would be very confusing to me.

 

[BigMartin]

That is an interesting comment. Would you prefer C7 to refer to the Cmaj7 which is also written CΔ? If that is the case, how would you prefer the dominant 7th to be written? Cb7 would be very confusing to me.

I know it's to late to change it now, and it's not important to me really (I probably should have said "mildly annoying"). But it's kind of inconsistent. All the other chord extensiions/alterations are comparisons with the major scale. So we get b13 for a minor 6th (or 13th), b3, #5, etc. But the default for 7 is the flatted version. I suppose you could just say it's all referring to mixlydian rather than major, but it just seems a bit unnatural. I imagine it happend because dominant 7ths were the most common 7th chords. But yes, if we were starting from sctratch I'd rather have 7 mean major 7 and dominant 7 be b7.

 

[jbtsax]

If one thinks in terms of tonality, it all makes perfect sense. C7 is not in the key of C, it is in the key of F therefore the 7th of C7 (Bb) is not an altered tone in that key. It is the natural extension of the triad starting on C in the key of F.

 

[BigMartin]

If one thinks in terms of tonality, it all makes perfect sense. C7 is not in the key of C, it is in the key of F therefore the 7th of C7 (Bb) is not an altered tone in that key. It is the natural extension of the triad starting on C in the key of F.

But all the other chord extensions refer to the root of the chord, not the key of the piece . And C7 isn't always in the key of F. Sometimes it's a secondary dominant in the key of Bb. And sometimes it's the tonic chord of a C blues.

 

[spike]

Yes and since it's such a commonly used chord C7 would seem the best way to write it.
Cdom7 "could" be confusing at a quick glance. C-7 or Cmin7 refer to something else. and as jbt says Cb7 is "excuse me what does that mean".

Something interesting I read in Mark Levine's book
page 473 These are myths that are simply untrue
" . . . You have to have both the 3rd and 7th in a dominant 7th chord."
page 474 " once any alteration is made to a V chord . . (and) . . . the 3rd and 7th lose much of their importance. . . there is nothing sacred about playing the 3rd or 7th on dominant 7th chords . . ."

I know he's talking about alterations but I've noticed it in "Pop" tunes where the 7 chord is indicated but the 7 note is not played either by the rhythm section or the soloist.

Any comments on this from the theoreticians. I'm an ear player so it seems kind of weird to me.

 

[aldevis]

The reason is historical. Dominant had the 7th (the tritone with the 3rd) Subdominant the 6th (that inverted became our II).
Not many extensions (as in self standing chord notes) for a couple of tonal centuries.

Not even sure when the tonic started having an added 6th.

 

[BigMartin]

and as jbt says Cb7 is "excuse me what does that mean"

But only because we're not used to it. I get that it's not going to change now, but if we were starting again, Cb7 woulgd get my vote, and C7 would mean C major 7.

 

[spike]

But isn't Cb7 enharmonic B7 ?

 

[Nick Wyver]

But isn't Cb7 enharmonic B7 ?

And here lies the problem.