Playing the saxophone Breathy smoky sound

[syevad]

I've read where letting some air escape to get that breathy sound... Then I read where that will make your reed squeak.. What is the conensus…i let air out thru the corners of my mouth and like the softer sound…is this a bad practice?
Thanks

I agree with some valuable comments already made by others about relaxing techniques...
Then in my experience the right mouthpiece might help too - never sounded breathy (never bothered as I'm happy with a modern cutting tone) until I started playing a cheap alto metal selmer copy bought many years ago from USA (probably a chinese copy). I was so impressed I bought other 3 of various sizes - all sold expect for one which I still keep for it's breathiness - it has a very large chamber and needs a lot of "lung power" to get the best out of it - very satisfying (but tiring).

 

[Pete Thomas]

"..take IN less" !

I find if too much mpc is in, it's louder and more likely to get squawky

Exactly

 

[Ghr9204]

If you take in more you have less control. Taking in less is the only way I know of to get a good subtone.

Yeah, even in the demo part of the linked video, you can see him slightly retracting the jaw on the low notes, doing the exact opposite of what he says to do. Less mouthpiece for more subtone is the way to go.

In any case, just experiment on your own until you get it. That's how everybody does it. Nobody can tell you precisely what to do and expect subtone to happen when you try it. You have to figure it out on your own.

I get a really nice subtone out of my Jupiter Vito tenor, and this is of all things with my Bari Esprit mouthpiece and a Rico Royal #2 reed. I take less of the mouthpiece on the lower notes. The sax does the rest. Works really good blending with the upper woodwinds, or being a countermelody or rythm section part. Blends well playing bassoon or alto clarinet cue notes to augment or make up for missing instrumentation.

It also makes well for smooth jazz playing, got a lot of compliments for my Christmas jazz soloing on the Jupe during our Salvation Army's Kettle Kickoff Dinner fund raiser last month.

My Jupe does subtone better than my Venus tenor, which is a bit brighter, hence why now it is my fave.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Exactly

What’s wrong with sqawky? Some people like sqawky
(Read in a Nigel Tufnell way)

 

[turf3]

Subtone isn't about letting air leak out of your embouchure, it's about letting air get past the reed on into the horn.

It seems that I pull back a bit on my lower lip when I do this, and maybe increase air pressure a bit? The lower lip manipulation would damp the vibration of the reed, restricting its movements so air can rush past it, with some of that air just passing and not contributing to the movement of the reed.

 

[MikeMorrell]

I do (now!) appreciate that a 'breathy, smoky' subtone is a useful technique that sax players may sometimes/often want to use (or not), Personally (and wrongly!), I've never had any interest in learning it.

Shortly after I joined the café (as a sax newbie) 20 years ago, someone started a really interesting thread (which I've been unable to track down through my 'search keywords'). The thread focused on 'sound conception' and asked members for examples of 'great sax players' who had influenced their preferred 'sound conception'.

As a complete sax newbie, I had absolutely no idea. Mainly because I didn't know of any 'great sax players' or how they sounded. So (via Wikipedia) I quickly started to listen to a few samples of of a few past 'great sax players'. I soon decided that I much preferred a 'bright, edgy' sound over a 'smooth, sweet' sound (often with subtones).

20 years later, I realise that I then did many 'great sax players' a great injustice, In assuming that that that the few samples that I'd listened to were representative of their 'sounds'. Turns out that that they played many different 'sound concepts'. From 'sweet and smooth' to 'bright and edgy'.

A relevant thread is John Talcott's thread on the 'evolution of the saxophone sound'.

Mike

P.S. John Talcott (@jbtsax) was a truly prolific, insightful, helpful and highly valued contributor to the café until his death in December 2023. It's wonderful that @Pete Thomas has 'archived' John's contributions over many years in the forum 'John Calcott in memoriam'. So that his many years of shared, valuable wisdom remains available to café members.

 

[Colin the Bear]

View: https://youtu.be/u_GfWfgytLI?si=BYcJVXXwkXqKvh1L

 

[MikeMorrell]

View: https://youtu.be/u_GfWfgytLI?si=BYcJVXXwkXqKvh1L

Yeah, Ben Webster was one of those great sax players (and subtone masters) that I then 'wrote off' after listening to 1-2 minutes of some random track.
But listening to 3 minutes of the track just illustrates how wrong I was! His 'tonal range' (from 'smooth' - no 'attack', long 'decay' on notes) to pretty 'sharp, edgy' high notes shows just what an accomplished and expressive player he was. I'm sure the same is true for most 'great' sax players.

View: https://youtu.be/SZV5uD8WoQE?si=C5u8l03NMgJSRynK&t=657

 

[MikeMorrell]

I do (now!) appreciate that a 'breathy, smoky' subtone is a useful technique that sax players may sometimes/often want to use (or not), Personally (and wrongly!), I've never had any interest in learning it.

Shortly after I joined the café (as a sax newbie) 20 years ago, someone started a really interesting thread (which I've been unable to track down through my 'search keywords'). The thread focused on 'sound conception' and asked members for examples of 'great sax players' who had influenced their preferred 'sound conception'.

As a complete sax newbie, I had absolutely no idea. Mainly because I didn't know of any 'great sax players' or how they sounded. So (via Wikipedia) I quickly started to listen to a few samples of of a few past 'great sax players'. I soon decided that I much preferred a 'bright, edgy' sound over a 'smooth, sweet' sound (often with subtones).

20 years later, I realise that I then did many 'great sax players' a great injustice, In assuming that that that the few samples that I'd listened to were representative of their 'sounds'. Turns out that that they played many different 'sound concepts'. From 'sweet and smooth' to 'bright and edgy'.

A relevant thread is John Talcott's thread on the 'evolution of the saxophone sound'.

Mike

P.S. John Talcott (@jbtsax) was a truly prolific, insightful, helpful and highly valued contributor to the café until his death in December 2023. It's wonderful that @Pete Thomas has 'archived' John's contributions over many years in the forum 'John Calcott in memoriam'. So that his many years of shared, valuable wisdom remains available to café members.

PS. I've worn hearing aids for the past couple of months which has totally changed the way I hear music (and people, and birdsong and distant children's' voices). Not in terms of boosting the 'volume' but in terms of expanding the 'frequencies' that I can hear. I did my first 'hearing test' more than 15 years ago and the (hospital) audiologist's conclusion at that time was that I had a 'dent' in the frequencies that I could hear and that 'amplifying' my hearing with a hearing aid wouldn't improve my hearing. So I learned to cope (sitting closer to 'speakers', etc.)

How hearing aid technology has improved in 15 years! It's no longer about (just) amplification but about testing the specific frequency ranges that you can and cannot hear so well, And about configuring (personalised) hearing aids to boost just those frequencies that you (based on testing) cannot hear so well. In my case I had about 50% hearing loss, on the higher and lower frequencies. The mid-tones were fine.

So it's highly probable that when I was briefly skimming through a couple of random recordings of (what Wikipedia suggested as) 'great saxophone players' 15-20 years ago, my hearing wasn't all that good.

 

[syevad]

There should be a distinction between subtones and "breathy tone" - learning how to subtone of course helps achieve a breathy tone. If the OP is a total beginner then yes...maybe learning how to subtone is paramount but from my understanding he wants a more breathy tone.
I've mentioned about large chamber mouthpieces might help...also, very relevant is the aperture - the wider the better and you can justify the use of softer reeds (even N1 if needed) without the risk of being accused of being too much of a wimp.
All that should help you achieve a breathy tone.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I've never been afraid of names. Well... not in adulthood.

 

[Ghr9204]

That "breathy smoky sound" sounds really nice on ballad classics like "The Shadow Of Your Smile", "The Look Of Love", some ballads by the late Burt Bacharach and a number of Jobim's Bossa Novas on tenor. That additional touch is an audience pleaser.