Intonation Big Bore = Less Forgiving Intonation & Tone

[Veggie Dave]

Here's a weird, and probably contentious 😉, question that has arisen due to a comment another sax player made on Facebook.

Their comment regarded how large bore saxes, such as Keilwerths, are less forgiving regarding intonation and tone production compared to Selmer-based horns. The question is, is this actually true?

 

[Colin the Bear]

The tone producer has nothing to do with the bore.
Intonation can be problematical if there is a mouthpiece mismatch.
I've never blown a Keilworth.

 

[rhysonsax]

I dunno but that certainly chimes with my experience. I find that Selmer and similar horns (Buffet, Yamaha, Yanagisawa) really play quite well in tune for me and that Conns and Keilwerth have some flakey areas higher up where I really need to work at the tuning. Maybe it is related to flexibility and tone in some way.

Of course another question is whether Keilwerths really are "large bore" as is often taken as Gospel but I am not certain whether that is true.

Rampone is another make that is sometimes said to be "large bore" and my R&C Saxello is a lovely instrument that tunes as well as my Selmer or Yanagisawa and sounds better too !

Rhys

 

[Dr G]

Here's a weird, and probably contentious 😉, question that has arisen due to a comment another sax player made on Facebook.

Their comment regarded how large bore saxes, such as Keilwerths, are less forgiving regarding intonation and tone production compared to Selmer-based horns. The question is, is this actually true?

Sure - to put it another way, Selmer-like horns all sound the same and are inflexible with regard to manipulating their intonation (sarcasm).

That aside, come more context would help. What is the FB player’s experience and what horns do they play? I played Selmers for 30 years or so, and have played Borganis for the last 20. I currently own sops by both Borgani and J-K.

From what I’ve experienced as a listener, people that suck on one horn are equally likely to suck at least as much on another.

 

[Jimmymack]

I’ve had a Keilwerth for a long time and the tuning is spot on, the tone big, full and flexible so in the case of the horn I have the statement is nonsense. I suppose you could say it’s harder to bend notes but I’m comparing it to a King, also considered large bore I believe, which is very flexible. Dr G probably has it right.

 

[Dr G]

Rampone is another make that is sometimes said to be "large bore"…

Rampone actually claims that on their website: Ramponesaxes

“The geometry of the saxophone tube is undoubtedly the crucial parameter for determining the sound of an instrument. We at Rampone & Cazzani have had ample opportunity to study and carefully analyze a large number of the best saxophones ever made. The conclusions that we have reached are based on our analyses and we study to this day … the past fuels the present and gives birth to the future.”

“Our studies have led us to the conclusion that a wide bore saxophone, enhances depth as well as warmth of sound. It is these characteristics which have led players to compare our horns with the Great Vintage Saxes of the past. Our “sound” distinguishes our horns from everything that is being produced elsewhere today.”

 

[Stephen Howard]

Here's a weird, and probably contentious 😉, question that has arisen due to a comment another sax player made on Facebook.

Their comment regarded how large bore saxes, such as Keilwerths, are less forgiving regarding intonation and tone production compared to Selmer-based horns. The question is, is this actually true?

Hasn't been my experience.

 

[Dr G]

FWIW, I have actually played both Selmer and Borgani tenors in classical quartets with no issues - always getting positive comments regarding tone, volume, projection, and balance. I have similarly used both horns in contemporary big bands, and again had a wonderful time with both - each horn (Serie III, Ref 36, and silver pearl Jubilee) could carry the hall sufficiently to solo without a mic, and each blended well with a section that was otherwise mostly Selmer Mk VIs (often a Yanagisawa B-992 on bari). If someone has a difficult time with the horn, it either isn’t set up well, or they are not doing their part.

 

[turf3]

Well, if you go to M. Postma's website you will see that the bore diameter of the Keilwerth tenor is essentially identical to that of all the late model Selmer tenors. (He doesn't show measurements of a Keilwerth alto).

So the very first supposition you state appears to be inaccurate.

I think a lot of people read somewhere "so and so horn is large bore" and they NEVER ASK FOR MEASUREMENTS.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Not contentious at all then... 😀

 

[jbtsax]

Something I have learned from my study of woodwind acoustics is that the taper and interior dimensions of the bore/body of a saxophone determine it's harmonicity. Harmonicity refers to how close the harmonics are to whole number multiples of the frequency of the fundamental. An instrument with good harmonicity will be more responsive and have better intonation. It will also feel less flexible to the player who wants to bend notes, so in that regard it is not automatically a trait that all players like. Brass players whose lips are the reed that produces the sound refer to how well an instrument "slots". That means that when they buzz close to the desired frequency of the harmonic that is the partial they want to play, the natural resonant frequency of the instrument does the rest and locks into that partial. Some brass players prefer instruments that slot well because of the accuracy with which they can play. Others like instruments that enable them to bend notes more easily to add to the style and expression in their playing. See the attached file for more information on this topic.

 

[Wade Cornell]

IMHO, and often said by others: the sax is an imperfect instrument. If you can't hear when/where you are on pitch then you're not likely to be able to play in tune. The higher the pitch of the instrument (soprano, sopranino) the more critical that becomes. I own a Julius Keilwerth (JK) alto and have owned/played numerous other altos. The Keilwerth plays well with excellent intonation...and it's a 1950s "New King" model. I also have several R&C horns which are very large bore Sopranino, Soprano and Tenor all with excellent intonation. No difference in these to any other pro model with good intonation.

OK here's the exception: I have a Gerhard Keilwerth (GK) alto that has intonation problems. It's a very modern horn and a prototype. Gorgeous tone, but as a prototype has severe intonation problems. Least likely cause is bore size. The kinks were never worked out and it remains an imperfect example of a trial design that (for obvious reasons) never made it into production. I'm currently trying to work out neck changes/configuration that could solve the problem.

Good article from jbtsax.

 

[Phil]

People who play a big bore are really boring.
Small bore…a little boring.

 

[thomsax]

A Keilwerth made sax from the 50's or early 60's are in my opinion not big bore saxes. In the mid 60's the wide bow Keilwerth came and that's is a bigger tenorsax.

I can't say if a wide bow Keilwerth is more or less forgiving? But I think my Keilwerth can handle a bigger mouthpiece (more volume) better than my Martin Committees. A huge, full and big sound on my "New King" (Keilwerth) tenor.

I think a Martin Comittee is a small (bore/area) tenor. Selmer, Yamaha Yani + 1000 of other brands are more medium. Keilwerth and Conn Artist (10M) a large/big tenor. I don't know about Kng Super 20?

All my tenor saxes fits in a Hiscox tenor case. But the "The NewKing" is too big.😉

A The Martin Alto (1957) neck is longer and also bigger ID compared to a Keilwerth alto neck from 1956. The Keilwert is shorter and smalller ID as well.

A wide bow Keilwerth. More space between the body and bell.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Brass players whose lips are the reed that produces the sound refer to how well an instrument "slots".

I think this is what he was describing - whether he realised it or not. I can't say I've ever noticed this on a sax, though.

Speaking as someone who does a lot of recording and mixing, the one thing I have noticed is that instruments can be more or less obviously out of tune depending on their frequencies and the bias of the speakers you're listening on.

 

[turf3]

A Keilwerth made sax from the 50's or early 60's are in my opinion not big bore saxes. In the mid 60's the wide bow Keilwerth came and that's is a bigger tenorsax.

I can't say if a wide bow Keilwerth is more or less forgiving? But I think my Keilwerth can handle a bigger mouthpiece (more volume) better than my Martin Committees. A huge, full and big sound on my "New King" (Keilwerth) tenor.

I think a Martin Comittee is a small (bore/area) tenor. Selmer, Yamaha Yani + 1000 of other brands are more medium. Keilwerth and Conn Artist (10M) a large/big tenor. I don't know about Kng Super 20?

All my tenor saxes fits in a Hiscox tenor case. But the "The NewKing" is too big.😉

A The Martin Alto (1957) neck is longer and also bigger ID compared to a Keilwerth alto neck from 1956. The Keilwert is shorter and smalller ID as well.

View attachment 19512
A wide bow Keilwerth. More space between the body and bell.
View attachment 19513

Well, I just pointed out that in the one source I can find that publishes actual measurements, Keilwerth tenors are NOT larger in bore than Selmers. Conns are a bit larger. The Martin alto is a larger than average bore, not smaller, but tenor Martin measurements aren't presented.

Remember, in God we trust, all others bring data. Anyone tells you that such and such a horn is larger or smaller bore, ask them to show you the measurements. No measurements, no validity. 'Tain't easy to make those measurements unless you have experience and some tools.

I don't know how you can characterize neck ID unless you take numerous measurements down its length; look at the Postma measurements to see just how much variation of bore occurs down the length of a neck, I assume due to the bending of the neck.

Effect of tightness or openness of the fold at the bow is, I think, undetermined at this time. We know from acoustic theory that there is an effect of a bend. If memory serves, I believe it's considered to have a similar effect as a local enlargement of the bore. But that doesn't necessarily tell us what kind of effect two different bend radii would have.

 

[spike]

I've had two JK SX90 tenors, I haven't ever "measured" them, the first one was a very early model and the bell was fatter and slightly shorter than the later one. Neither of them fit in yer average tenor case. I still have the newer one, it's my workhorse, it's now over twenty years old and it sounds big especially with a PPT or an MBII.
I also still have an old JK brochure from way back that says "Extra wide bow for full sound" referring to both the SX & EX 90 horns. These design elements were a result after the cooperation with Peter Ponzol according to a conversation I had with Mr. Keilwerth at an open house at my dealers in the early 90's.
The only criticism I've heard from players having intonation problems on the bottom end of these horns was years ago on the German Sax Forum. Whether that was an experience issue or not I know not, in my case I never had any problems.
As far as I know JK made some construction changes around the 112,000 Model Nr. exactly what I know not.
I do have another story but it's tea-time . . . .

 

[thomsax]

I'll look for my paper. It's done in a CAD program. I had contact with a guy that worked for Keilwerth AG and did som changes on Keilwerths saxes around 2002-2004.

 

[jbtsax]

I have done some research attempting to find out what acoustic effect enlarging or reducing a conical bore has on the tone and/or intonation and have found nothing with regard to brass or woodwind instruments. There is however, quite a bit of "anecdotal" evidence especially among brass players that playing an instrument with a larger bore size produces a greater volume, but in turn takes more effort to play. Since brass instruments consist of a solid bore from the mouthpiece to the bell, and a saxophone consists of what Benade calls a "tonehole" lattice, to me it is uncertain whether there is a direct correlation between the effects of bore volume between brass and woodwinds.

"Big bell" is a descriptive term one hears when discussing saxophones. It has never been clear to me whether that refers to the interior "volume" of the entire bell section, or to the "area" of the portion that is called the "bell flare". Brass bells typically have a much larger surface area, and are constructed of thinner brass than saxophone bells, so it seems uncertain the acoustic effects of the two different types of bells are very similar---especially since 100% of the sound energy of a brass instrument comes out the bell, and a percentage of the sound energy from a saxophone is emitted through the open toneholes as well.

 

[turf3]

I've always assumed "big bell" refers to the end diameter of the bell flare - you know, the part that basically does SFA. I've had saxophones of the same model made within a few years of each other with dramatic differences in that diameter. I very seriously doubt that the last 1" or so of the bell does diddly squat, but the big ones make people think "oh this must give a bigger sound".