Saxophones BetterSax Session alto vs. Mark VI

[Pete Effamy]

What are the differences in Blowing response ?

This and sound (which is directly affected by the former) are of the utmost importance for me. Intonation - unless there is a crazy problem somewhere (unlikely) - is not important to me or any other player with basics under their belt as it's an easy fix once you remember which notes are a bit here and there.

Music requires enough concentration without having to put more thought into what the horn needs and why it isn't doing X or Y. There are many other things on the bandstand that can demand attention, and I don't need a horn that doesn't "output whatever I input".

 

[cappers]

But the target audience is, therefore; beginner / late starters/hobbiests, surely? €¥$£2500 (alto) seems to me a different market. A market of folks who are probably more aware of history of brands etc. A market of people who might, indeed, aspire to a Selmer. And are less likely to need to lean on Jay's reputation...

As someone who falls into the first category, I wanted a good horn at a reasonably cheap price in case I didn't get on with it. I did a lot of research and was able to sort the wheat from the chaff and ended up with a YAS-25 and then a few months later a YTS-25, both in total for about 25% of the BS sax. They needed minor (<£100) servicing and I have no need for anything 'better'.

But I wonder if many beginners or their parents if youngsters, would prefer a 'new' sax, unblown, free of spittle and plaque residue, scratches, dents and marks from previous owners? Also the thought that a second hand horn might be no good - why sell it if it is - or need too much work to repair cost effectively.

Finally not knowing how to play the sax a buyer might think 'get a new one because it'll be ok, a second hand might be wonky but how would I know?'

 

[mizmar]

Youtube influencers are gradually replacing conventional advertising and word of mouth.

That's the how - and clearly Jay is in a good "influencer" position; but who is the target?

And, to be honest, I think someone with my profile is. A late life hobbiest who might be able to reward themselves with an "upgrade" after some years - but is not that fussed or can't/won't to go hunting.
That was my gut response to the TW Essentials line.

 

[mizmar]

But I wonder if many beginners or their parents if youngsters, would prefer a 'new' sax,

IMHO people (just as much late starters as kids/parents) in that situation want hassle free.
Some will think they'll get that because New - so bargain basement Amazon.
Others will want more assistance or some guarantee; so G4M/Thonmann guarantee/return policies. Possibly brand (Yamaha), possibly rep of influencer (eg Jay's first horns)
Or shop bought (new or 2nd hand)
Or whatever band leader says.

You where prepared to accept more hassle. That's great! It's part of the culture round these parts.
Different folks and all that.

 

[JayeNM]

This and sound (which is directly affected by the former) are of the utmost importance for me. Intonation - unless there is a crazy problem somewhere (unlikely) - is not important to me or any other player with basics under their belt as it's an easy fix once you remember which notes are a bit here and there.

Music requires enough concentration without having to put more thought into what the horn needs and why it isn't doing X or Y. There are many other things on the bandstand that can demand attention, and I don't need a horn that doesn't "output whatever I input".

I agree...asterisked....because I am NOT by any means even an intermediate player, relatively speaking, being a repairer I am sort of a 'generalist'...but convos with clients, bandmates, friends who ARE highly accomplished sax players echoes exactly what you have written. Blowing response is, in their opinions, what sets a true upper-shelf horn apart from ones which are not. And even as a relatively Neanderthal saxophonist, I can feel and recognize IT when I play one.
This often is completely forgotten in 'online' discussion, and certainly is NOT something which can be (directly) demonstrated by a video or recording, necessarily.

 

[JayeNM]

I think the market is changing, so the Youtube influencers are gradually replacing conventional advertising and word of mouth. This is one of the reasons for me not continuing the Cafesaxophone saxophone project.

Yes we saw this start maybe 3-4 years ago ? Boutique and starter companies clearly combed YT and other social media, found "sax chat" accounts which had a LOT of followers, and approached them with...a proposition. No doubt some monetary compensation included, but also...way, way, way cheaper than having to actually HIRE a marketing dept for sure.

 

[JayeNM]

So it is actually a decent price point, there is definitely a market.

In fairness, and not to come off as a skeptical curmudgeon, I agree with this. IF what this model is , is even just a solid, nice-toned "upper-intermediate"-level horn, whatever exactly that may mean -and if (only time will tell) it holds together OK under robust playing regimen....then they potentially will have have 'succeeded' IMHO (a respectable, nice-sounding brand new model which has some attributes of an 'advanced' sax, and is occupying a price point which few brands reside in).

But.....

(OK I'll stop)

 

[Colin the Bear]

The name puts me off. Too much history with Better...this and that.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The name puts me off. Too much history with Better...this and that.

Better the other..

 

[JayeNM]

But I wonder if many beginners or their parents if youngsters, would prefer a 'new' sax, unblown, free of spittle and plaque residue, scratches, dents and marks from previous owners? Also the thought that a second hand horn might be no good - why sell it if it is - or need too much work to repair cost effectively.

Finally not knowing how to play the sax a buyer might think 'get a new one because it'll be ok, a second hand might be wonky but how would I know?'

It is ABSOLUTELY this way. Selling second-hand horns, I can attest to that. Even though many people will acknowledge that second hand gets you more bang for the buck, and that in fact their budget CAN get them a more 'advanced' model, used, than what it can buy them, new....many (I might posit "most") buyers WILL still opt for the new option....using the precise rationales you noted...

...it doesn't have any wear (even if just aesthetically)...

...a used horn is gonna be more expensive to service....

...it's brand new from a shop or store so has some sort of warranty coverage (oftentimes not really all that great if ever called upon, but from the vantage point of someone laying down their quid, it appears to be there, and attractive).

....it doesn't seem to have many or any 'bad' reviews....

This used to annoy me, because all of those can be rebutted, but in time I came to understand that the position isn't really without foundation, particularly when you put yourself in their shoes, given their experience and knowledge with purchasing an instrument, etc...

 

[Colin the Bear]

It's the difference why people want to play saxophone.

Ooh shiny and looks cool. Or

Music making pipe requ'd.

 

[Ivan]

if I still had access to an IEC listening room, a high-spec recording and reproduction setup, and not least some fairly expensive instruments and someone who could play them!)

Or...

Stand in the same room as the player

 

[Pete Thomas]

The name puts me off. Too much history with Better...this and that.

But in the niche maybe it's successful. I could well say I don't like the brand name, all the while whoever invented it is laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe it's the way branding is going, who'd have though WeBuyAnyCar or CarWow would be more successful than themore traditional brands like GB Motor Sales

 

[mark_addy]

Or...

Stand in the same room as the player

Sure, that's the best! But if you want to audition your comparison in front of a large test panel in as repeatable a way as you can manage (which is often necessary to demonstrate a statistically-significant preference) then recordings are often necessary.
Demonstrating an audible difference is often about an order of magnitude easier than demonstrating a reliable preference. And you have to worry about your test panel - normally hearing, musically naive? - or musically expert, in which case expert in which terms... it goes on and on. Acoustic subjective testing borrows quite a lot of approaches from the food industry, perhaps interestingly enough.

 

[Colin the Bear]

But in the niche maybe it's successful. I could well say I don't like the brand name, all the while whoever invented it is laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe it's the way branding is going, who'd have though WeBuyAnyCar or CarWow would be more successful than themore traditional brands like GB Motor Sales

Well... Better buy used to sell toilet brushes door to door. We tried one but went back to the paper.

 

[dorianbluejazz]

I was thinking it will be interesting to watch Jamie's youtube posts where he plays an alto sax, going forward. Is he playing his mark vi or is he a convert to the bettersax session alto?

 

[dorianbluejazz]

Well, Jamie posted a new video "Insane Learning from 1 Blues Lick" where he plays alto - and he's playing the black Better Sax Session Alto. IMHO - the sax doesn't sound like a Mark VI in this video.

 

[PigSquealer]

@skeller047 , Jay will be at NAMM. Let’s visit him together.
I’m sure this would be a great thing for members to have a honest report from us. A goofy tech, a serious player and the man who tries hard to bring saxophone everything to the globe.

 

[skeller047]

@skeller047 , Jay will be at NAMM. Let’s visit him together.
I’m sure this would be a great thing for members to have a honest report from us. A goofy tech, a serious player and the man who tries hard to bring saxophone everything to the globe.

BetterSax is on my list of vendors to see. I also want to try their curved soprano. I have my mouthpieces and reeds ready to go!