Reeds Beginner epiphanies - reed size

[Hobbie]

As mentioned on another topic, I'm only playing the sax for roughly 3 months. I wanted to play tenor right away and found a third hand Jupiter 789-787 that came with a Vandoren T45 Jumbo Java mouthpiece and 2 1/2 Vandoren Java Red reeds. My main interest, as far as tone and playing go, is 50's/60's jazz.

After a while, reading about my idols's setups, I tried a Rico 3 reed that also came with the instrument - unpacked, no box, just "rico 3" stamped on it. The sound felt a little rounder and darker (was it just my ears?!), less squeaky and brittle than the 2 1/2, so I kept practicing with it. I was about to buy and try out a set of LaVoz M, having read that Wayne Shorter used them.

Still, the last weeks were pretty frustrating, my embouchure wasn't much satisfying, my low notes were hard to hit and often messed up, ending up going an octave up or into ugly squeals, especially when I tried to blow softly... Overall, I thought I had a pretty ugly tone.

Yesterday, on a whim, I pulled out my sax of its case, put on a 2 1/2 on the mouthpiece and BAM... it was like opening a faucet! The notes just flew out, I felt better control, could hit the lows while blowing softly (I couldn't do it right with the Rico 3)

So, I know the saying : whatever floats your boat...! Still I wonder :

- did practising with a harder reed helped me, like I had to work harder to get the notes and control my air flow? So, should I keep working with the 3, switching between sizes?

- if the 2 1/2 works easier, should I still try out the LaVoz M? (A chart I found puts it on the same level as the Java Red 2 1/2....and the Rico 3! So I'm a little bit confused!)

- total noob question, but aside from the obvious answers I can find on the web, will the reed size I'm considering drastically alter tone? Is it something I should work to force out of me or should I just go with the flow, rolling the way that works for me?

All apologies if it sounds a little stupid or over-discussed, I'm still in the early stages and not knowing better, instinct probably drives me towards the way I setup my guitar : thick strings, hard picks, low tuning ^^ It has nothing to do with the way I want to play the saxophone but I guess the "musician" part of my brain is wired that way ^^

 

[Tenor Viol]

If you’re a beginner, then you need to develop the muscle tone of your embouchure. So, you usually start with a softer reed eg 2 for a tenor. There are no rules about what you should use. There is a tendency for some to get a bit macho about how hard a reed they use

 

[Zugzwang]

You’re bench-pressing with your mouth muscles - work up gently to the big weights or you’ll put a lip out

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is it something I should work to force out of me o

No no no

or should I just go with the flow, rolling the way that works for me?

yes yes yes.

Softer reeds work best IMO

Why do we still have this obsession that harder reds are an "upgrade"

Work instead on your embouchure and breath support to be able to get a good sound from softer reeds, that way you can get a much more versatile and, in the end, better tone.

But, above all, bear in mind, forums are not a teacher.

 

[nigeld]

The 2 1/2 works for you and the 3 doesn't, so stick with the 2 1/2. Don't get hung up on having "the right" strength. Whatever works for you is right.

Once in a while it may be worth trying another reed strength to see if your embouchure has altered and a stronger or softer reed now works better, but my experience is that at any time there is a strength that works for me, and using a harder reed does not improve my tone. (Though it may enable me to play louder.)

Frankly, whatever reed type Wayne Shorter used is not particularly relevant for a beginner, but if you want to try La Voz, then it might be MS or M. I think MS is more likely. The best way to find out would be to buy a couple of each. My experience is that for a given mouthpiece, some brands work better than others.

 

[CliveMA]

Roxy Coss explains why she switched from a Vandoren T16 T9 (0.115 tip opening) ZZ 3 reed to a Vandoren T16 T6 (0.098) ZZ 2.5 after herniating her neck (playing clarinet when unfit)!

Roxy comments, "For me it is more flexible. It forces you, if you want air to go through, to be more loose. So then everything is vibrating more, it's more resonant. I love it!"

Clive

 

[GCinCT]

- did practising with a harder reed helped me, like I had to work harder to get the notes and control my air flow? So, should I keep working with the 3, switching between sizes?

You've only been playing three months. You need consistency in your set up. Same mouthpiece, reed, horn while you develop your skills.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Best thing for controlling your aiflow is breathing ecersises. using resistance like a hard reed, wide tip or shorter facing maens that the resistance is helping you. The less resistance the more you use your own muscle control.

Adding resistance just means you use your blowing really hard until your face expodes muscles as opposed to using your embouchure and air support muscles.

 

[georgesax]

I am a beginner too! just share my mistakes with you. after making many mistakes in changing mouthpieces and reeds. I have finally found all the advice from the experienced players and members of the cafe are not only correct, but great. I should have listened to them much earlier. it would have save me lots of moneys, and also importantly the time.

stick on the same mouthpiece and reed. For me, it is Yamaha 4C and 2.5zz for the tenor.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Best thing for controlling your aiflow is breathing ecersises. using resistance like a hard reed, wide tip or shorter facing maens that the resistance is helping you. The less resistance the more you use your own muscle control.

Adding resistance just means you use your blowing really hard until your face expodes muscles as opposed to using your embouchure and air support muscles.

Plus, you're not likely to have a decent control of the low register if you're a grade or two "too big".

 

[Hobbie]

Makes sense ; I really had a hard time with the low register, it ended up in a squeakfest nearly everytime...

I mostly wondered if, tone issues aside, there was an interest in "doing work outs" with a thicker reed, because when I got back to the 2 1/2, I felt like I was playing better, easier... got my answer!

Thanks guys !

 

[Pete Effamy]

Makes sense ; I really had a hard time with the low register, it ended up in a squeakfest nearly everytime...

I mostly wondered if, tone issues aside, there was an interest in "doing work outs" with a thicker reed, because when I got back to the 2 1/2, I felt like I was playing better, easier... got my answer!

Thanks guys !

Probably in terms of diaphragmatic breathing - but your embouchure would have been trying to make something work that didn't need any help. You can get little devices which help exercise your lungs, or you can swim, or do Yoga etc.

 

[GCinCT]

I mostly wondered if, tone issues aside, there was an interest in "doing work outs" with a thicker reed, because when I got back to the 2 1/2, I felt like I was playing better, easier... got my answer!

It's a perfectly legitimate question. Logically, it makes sense, like weightlifting.

 

[Pete Effamy]

It's a perfectly legitimate question. Logically, it makes sense, like weightlifting.

Yep, it's an interesting point. We have to think about it holistically too though, and watch for any possible knock-ons.

 

[Pete Effamy]

For example, dropping a bar-bell on the foot of the person in the front row.

 

[6441]

put on a 2 1/2 on the mouthpiece and BAM... it was like opening a faucet! The notes just flew out, I felt better control, could hit the lows while blowing softly

In had an identical experience while messing with the 3. In fact, after that experience, I bought some 2 and played them as well. Currently, I play mostly 2 1/2 but occasionally play a 2 ZZ and both seem optimal for my setup and me. I do feel the 2 1/2 is more stable pitch-wise than the 2.

 

[Mostlytenor]

Great to see the case being made for softer reeds. I'm alternating between Leger Signature 2.5 and 2.75 but veering towards 2.5 for alto and tenor.
Then again, the tip opening has to be considered too. I use small openings. I'm too ignorant to know why one would use wide openings.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Because you like them.

 

[Trav1s]

I went rather blindly into playing sax with absolutely no concept of reed hardness. I consulted a local shop for a good mouthpiece and reeds and ended up with a used Selmer C* mouthpiece and Vandoren 2.5 V21 reeds. Played that setup for a year and made some solid progress. I have since purchased a new mouthpiece and experimented with other Vandoren 2.5 reeds including the ZZ, Red, Green, and the traditional blue box. I still find the V21s a nice option on either mouthpiece but the Greens on the upgraded mouthpiece with a bigger opening.