Theory & Impro B7b7 - Flattened 7th in a Dominant 7th?

[mrblackbat]

Piccolo Pirate is correct. The 7th note of B must be a form of A - you count 7 notes through the alphabet. It would either be A# or A natural (e.g. in a blues or Dorian)

Sorry you’re both talking crap. The 7th note of a scale in B is an A yes, but never an Ab. You’ll even say yourself it’s an A or an A#. Come up with a legitimate scenario where it would be an Ab from the perspective of being in the key of B (or E minor as is the actual case here).

 

[Pete Thomas]

The 7th note of a scale in B is an A yes, but never an Ab

And I didn’t say it was Ab. If you look at my post that you quoted I actually said it would either be A or A#. No mention of it being Ab.

I went to great lengths to say it can’t be Ab.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Come up with a legitimate scenario where it would be an Ab from the perspective of being in the key of B (or E minor as is the actual case here).

I can’t think of such a scenario, but then I never said there was. I even said you can’t have an Ab in a B7:

You can't have a double flattened 7 in a dominant 7 chord, because it would no longer be a dominant 7

 

[cappers]

You can't have a double flattened 7 in a dominant 7 chord, because it would no longer be a dominant 7

Thank you Pete. That's why I asked, thought it might be some type of odd diminished chord as it couldn't be dominant with a bb7. Looking at the alto notation it's obviously a typo and should be B7b9.

All clear now, didn't mean to cause an argument!

 

[mrblackbat]

I can’t think of such a scenario, but then I never said there was. I even said you can’t have an Ab in a B7:

And so Piccolo wasn’t correct then.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And so Piccolo wasn’t correct then

See post 19

 

[wakyct]

Piccolo was responding in the context of a Bdim7 which, granted, is a tangent to the thread topic, but at least let's understand where people are coming from.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

"An ERROR is an unintentional deviation from what is correct, true, or accurate."

What I first said was, even an error, should be spelled correctly.
So, in the key of B, anything about the seventh of B, should be called a form of A, whether right or wrong, but not a form of G.
Hope that clears things up,
or try Donepezil.
Veterinarians often prescribe it, as Jazzers are, Kool Cats.
My next wood burning chore, on Cherry.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

The Kalimba Kid.

 

[skeller047]

Reading this thread, when I saw Mr. Piccolo’s comment, I thought “He’s right, there is no such thing as the key of G#, it has to be Ab”. I later realized he was riffing on the doubly-lowered 7th, aka diminished seventh, but by then the correct answer had occured; namely there was a typo in the part. Not unheard of….

All this brings up a point of the “correct” way to notate things. I used to worry about that kind of thing, especially when I was working as a programmer on notation software. I no longer do. I now have a much simpler rule - when there are two or more possible ways to notate something, pick the one that’s easiest to read. That will give the best performance, which after all is the point.

As saxophonists, and especially alto or bari saxophonists, we naturally end up in situations where there are lots of sharps. But is that always the best? Consider a piece in the key of E. Transposition for alto sax is to the key of C#. But perhaps for certain pieces, moving it to Db might result in a cleaner part. What if there is a temporary modulation to the key of C# major, for example? Much easier for the alto player to deal with a bunch of naturals (like D) than a bunch of double sharps (C## or Cx).

We have to learn to be fluid with our enharmonic equivalents.

 

[turf3]

The purpose of musical notation is to provide a code for making the desired sounds. Not to be always unassailably perfect according to rules of practice. If it reads down easier as Db than as C# then notate it as Db. Same with courtesy accidentals, the question of whether an accidental applies across different octaves, the use of vernacular rather than the formal Italian terms, and so on. The purpose is to communicate the intent.

 

[mrblackbat]

See post 19

Which is the post I responded to saying you’re both talking crap. Which I maintain, especially after you also say you can’t come up with a legitimate scenario for it.

 

[mrblackbat]

Piccolo was responding in the context of a Bdim7 which, granted, is a tangent to the thread topic, but at least let's understand where people are coming from.

No, because the chord was: B - D# - F# - G#. Absolutely a million miles away from a Bdim7 which is B - D - F - Ab, from a totally different tonal centre.

Let’s stop making things up.

 

[mrblackbat]

"An ERROR is an unintentional deviation from what is correct, true, or accurate."

What I first said was, even an error, should be spelled correctly.
So, in the key of B, anything about the seventh of B, should be called a form of A, whether right or wrong, but not a form of G.
Hope that clears things up,
or try Donepezil.
Veterinarians often prescribe it, as Jazzers are, Kool Cats.
My next wood burning chore, on Cherry.


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View attachment 35485

The point is that Ab is not a valid 7th option in the key of B. And so it cannot be correctly spelled as an Ab.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Once again.
Try reading aloud.

"So, in the key of B, anything about the seventh of B, should be called a form of A, whether right or WRONG, but not a form of G.
Hope that clears things up," 🙏

 

[mrblackbat]

Once again,

"So, in the key of B, anything about the seventh of B, should be called a form of A, whether right or WRONG, but not a form of G.
Hope that clears things up," 🙏

In the key of B, the options for a seventh are A and A#. If we’re talking about things that are wrong, it doesn’t matter how we spell it. It’s wrong. You can repeat it as many times as you like, but you’re still talking crap.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The purpose of musical notation is to provide a code for making the desired sounds. Not to be always unassailably perfect according to rules of practice.

I believe this to be the case, and said as much above. However I also believe that it is true in the situation where, as you imply, it is there to make things easy for people. So in a part that is written out for a musician to read the melody, it may be better to have the simpler enharmonic note (especially to avoid double sharps, double flats or too many accidentals. In these cases it’s more important to sight read a melody and not necessarily to immediately see the functional harmony.

However when it is important to see the functional harmony I still believe it is better to use the correct not names. I would normally do this when writing out and discussing chords, especially when using numerals rather note names.

Now in this case it was a mistake, and somebody had written a flattened flattened 7 on a dominant chord, which I believe is wrong as it becomes a 6th so is not dominant chord - so is wrong in this context.

I believe you should still use correct terminology in this case when discussing the interval between B (the root) and the double flattened or diminished 7 interval, especially as it is simple because the 7th is flattened without the need for a somewhat clumsy double flat sign.

Regarding the theoretical discussion about whether you can gave a diminished chord of B in the key of B I believe there can be legitimate cases for a diminished chord on any degree of a scale including the tonic or fifth. But that is not happening here so as I said is moot, but I still think it’s best to be enharmonically correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise is very entitled to that opinion, I’m just talking about what I think is good practice which is for any form of a 7th to be written as a 7th.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I apologise for the long post.

To summarise:

Basically some people believe that enharmonic spellings should be correct. Some believe they should be correct unless it makes sight reading more awkward. Some (I presume) believe it doesn’t matter.

It is theory and so can be applied theoretically even to a wrong chord.

 

[mrblackbat]

for any form of a 7th to be written as a 7th.

And in the example provided, you couldn’t come up with a legitimate scenario where that 7th could ever be an Ab. Ergo, Ab wouldn’t be a 7th. It would actually be a sixth, and misspelt, correctly being spelt as G#.

 

[Pete Thomas]

And in the example provided, you couldn’t come up with a legitimate scenario where that 7th could ever be an Ab

You actually asked to come up with a scenario in the key of B or E minor so not just in the example. As above you can have a diminished interval and/or a diminished chord on any degree of the scale. Any degree of any scale can (theoretically) be altered some would be pointless but not the 7th which can be major, minor or diminished.

Nicely summed up in post 20

Capper's incorrect guess about the B chord having a double flatted 7th would indeed be Ab, not G# (the major 6th/13th). But as Pete pointed out, it would no longer be a dominant 7th, but a weird sort of diminished chord.

I agree that entire line of thought is pointless, irrelevant and confusing.