Beginner Saxes B-Walstein or Hanson ST5 or ??

[Lupifaro]

Sorry to dig up this post again guys,

But its there any pictures around of the Un-Laq BW saxes? Im very intested.

Hi Chris The only UL BW horns were the two custom hand delaquered altos. I asked Dave Keighley to strip my horn ( body only) and Dave stripped his alto including keywork. Dave may still have his pictures i will take some of mine later today.Because of the interest i asked Martin if we could get them direct from the factory these would then be classified as Unlacquered.I will check when the first shipment can be expected.
birdman

www.studiosaxophones.co.uk

 

[sandeha]

I do love a good engineering discussion, though this time I can only add two banalities. First, when choosing between my Yamaha and another Alto (same spec/price bracket) it wasn't the sound that determined my choice, but the resistance of the key springs. My fingers could feel what my ears could not. Secondly, the tone of my Yamaha is a darn sight better now that I've got a rack of false teeth. ;}

 

[SteveK]

I'm also a guitarist myself from my late teens (although I don't play guitar much any more), I took the sax in my twenties, so I can really appreciate all this talk about guitar and horn designs and relative characteristics of materials.
But as much fun as all this talk is, and believe me I love the chance to get into these details (I get frustrated by horns players who don't want to engage in these topics and can't even tell you the make and model let alone the material) But for me I guess it was all summed by Frank Zappa (a late and great guitar hero) when he said 'Shut up and Play your Guitar' (No offence intended to any one on this thread).
Seems to me that there are countless variables - some that we can control and some we can't but it doesn't seem to me that small material variations (between say bronze and brass) come very high on the list.
Steve

 

[Pee Dee]

Just picked up on this thread. What an interesting read.
Don't know how a comparison can be made between a guitar string and a saxophone though. Between the string and the reed yes. Material can make a difference to the sound, as was mentioned, the plastic and the ebony clarinet. I have played both, the ebony has a nice round 'woody' sound, and the plastic sounds, well, plastic. Used to listen to a trad band in Plymouth in the 60's and the clarinet player had a metal clarinet. Yes, it sounded quite metallic, compared to the other clarinettists of the time, ie. Bilk, Monty Sunshine etc. As for the sax vibrating, yes it does. The bottom of my tenor lays against my thigh, and I can definitely feel the vibration. on the low notes anyway. Also, assuming the sound vibrations as they pass from the source, the reed, through the mouthpiece and down the tube, do they not bounce around the wall of the tube? Does the material the sound wave bounces off make a difference to the sound?
As light waves reflect more efficiently from a shiny surface, do sound waves reflect in different ways according to the surface from which it is reflected?
Surely this argument could be easily solved. Get someone to play a brass, bronze, brass/bronze, silver, silver plated, lacquered and unlacquered sax, using the same mouthpiece and same reed, and listen to see if there is any difference in sound. Although I can't see whether the instrument is lacquered or not making any difference, only in appearance.
These are just the thoughts of a complete layman, with no qualifications in any science, but I like to think I have a degree in common sense:welldone
Fascinating subject though, maybe a grant could be given to a group of scientists to research this. Better than some of the rubbish that is researched, which only needs a degree in the bleediing obvious!

 

[RobatBlueRock]

The analogy of the guitar strings, was just to give a steer on what different metals/combinations might sound like tonally. ie string manufacturers will say that stainless-steel strings sound 'brighter' than Phospher-bronze ones... and they do.
Stainless-steel sounds ok for electric, but not particularly nice on an acoustic guitar. This is also true.
So the presumption is that a stainless-steel sax might sound 'brighter' and more 'in-yer-face' than a Ph-B or brass one.

From an engineering perspective, it would make a lot of sense to make a sax from stainless-steel... it's cheap, plentiful, strong, hygenic and can be finished in a good variety of ways ie polished, brushed etc.
So why isn't a saxophone made from stainless-steel? because, I suggest, it wouldn't sound very nice.
Why aren't saxophones made of wood? because they would end up sounding more like the Clarinet family than a saxophone?
Why does a Gaphtone sax sound so smoooooth?... cos it's made of plastic... SIMPLES!

Brass, however, has historically proven to be the fundamental material of choice for saxophone, because it has the right mix of tonal textures and timbre and resonates in a 'musical' way.. ie, we like how it sounds and it defines the very nature of the sound we associate with the saxophone.
I would really like to know what a carbon graphite sax would sound like... pretty good I suspect.
Carbon graphite is a relatively new material which appears to have good 'musical' properties. It's been successfully used for guitars, speaker cones etc and although relatively expensive to manufacture, would I think make a pretty cool looking... and sounding... saxophone.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Why aren't saxophones made of wood? because they would end up sounding more like the Clarinet family than a saxophone?

Not really. The sound of the clarinet is more to do with it having a cylindrical rather than a conical boar. That's why metal clarinets still sound like clarinets. The material of a woodwind instrument (as opposed to strings or percussion) does not have a significant effect on the sound as the body doesn't vibrate.

 

[RobatBlueRock]

"The body doesn't vibrate"..... are you sure?
cos the last sax I grabbed hold of definately vibrated when it was played.
Also, if the body doesn't vibrate how do piezo transducers work from being attached to the body?

"All PPT mouthpieces are now made from Onyxite, a resin/stone composite material specially developed and tested by Ed Pillinger for maximum durability, tonal and playing response"....... TONAL response?

By the way Pete, my wife is really enjoying your tuition DVD. The CD sounds pretty cool too.
Happy New Year!!

 

[kevgermany]

Stainless sax.... Interesting idea, but the material is really hard to work - so how would you produce the basic body shape, and the tone hole (which are drawn from the brass by pullling a ball through the body of the sax). One of the main reasons for using brass to build the body is it's ductility.

I love the idea of a carbon fibre sax... I was half thinking of trying to build one, but decided the time would be better spent learning to play....

On the get a player to compare.... First problem is getting identical saxes, except for the body. Second is getting players who can play consistently from one sax to another. They've already researched using artificual blowers to replace players.... I've seen some calculations on the effect of sax body vibrations - must look it up, but the numbers are so small that it's supposed to be inaudible.

You should read Stephen Howard's piece, linked to earlier... It's (like all his stuff) not only funny, but really informative.

 

[old git]

Too late for the carbon fibre sax and flute. Jim Schmidt, an American ex motor cycle racer has been making them for years. He also makes an interesting key system, lift the bottom finger and it goes up a semitone and it's like that all the way up.
BIG PROBLEM? PRICE.

 

[DaveW]

Interesting site Bill and interesting key layout but as you say the price is 'work of art' like!!

I can't see any reference to carbon fibre though?

 

[Pee Dee]

Not really. The sound of the clarinet is more to do with it having a cylindrical rather than a conical boar. That's why metal clarinets still sound like clarinets. The material of a woodwind instrument (as opposed to strings or percussion) does not have a significant effect on the sound as the body doesn't vibrate.

Hi Pete
Far be it for me a mere beginner to argue with the voice of great experience and obtained knowledge from years of very talented playing, but all I know is, when my ebony clarinet was in for repair and I was loaned a plastic 'courtesy' instrument, I didn't like the sound at all! It sounded very plasticy to me. I used the same mpc and reed too. Re the metal clarinet, I assume it was made from carbon steel, and not stainless, did sound different to the more usual wooden clarinet.
Is it me?

 

[Pee Dee]

Stainless sax.... Interesting idea, but the material is really hard to work - so how would you produce the basic body shape, and the tone hole (which are drawn from the brass by pullling a ball through the body of the sax). One of the main reasons for using brass to build the body is it's ductility.

Oh yes, I entirely agree. I had 25 yrs as a precision engineer (turner) and know exactly how difficult stainless steel is to work with. I have drilled it, machined it, bent it and welded it. To make a saxophone of stainless steel would be quite impracticle. It could be done of course, but at what cost. Brass, and bronze are much easier materials to work with, as are copper and aluminium, (aluminum - USA), two materials which I don't think have been mentioned so far. Why are there no copper or ally saxes? Copper might be a bit expensive, but aluminium would make a nice light sax, but a bit soft, would dent easy, and staying with the 'does the material make a difference to the sound' theory it may sound a bit heavy, dull, lifeless. Also, I'm not sure if you can plate aluminium easy, or for that matter stainless steel, not that you would need to, they both polish up rather nicely! Also, would they roll out into sheets of the required thickness?
So I guess, the main reason most of the saxes, and wind instruments are made from brass, is the ease of working, the practicality of the material, and the cost.

 

[Pee Dee]

Oh, and Happy New Year to all

 

[RobatBlueRock]

Stainless sax.... Interesting idea, but the material is really hard to work - so how would you produce the basic body shape, and the tone hole (which are drawn from the brass by pullling a ball through the body of the sax). One of the main reasons for using brass to build the body is it's ductility.

You're not wrong Kev, satinless-steel is a bitch to work with, however, because of its relative strength compared to brass, I think you could get away with quite a thin extrusion so I still think it's possible to work it as normal (with the right tooling)... but the point is ...why bother?
I am pretty confident that it would sound rather unpleasant to the ear!

 

[Mikec]

"The body doesn't vibrate"..... are you sure?
cos the last sax I grabbed hold of definately vibrated when it was played.
Also, if the body doesn't vibrate how do piezo transducers work from being attached to the body?

Vibrations can be transmitted THROUGH a medium without it vibrating itself. Do you really think you can make a stiff brass tube vibrate with just your breath pressure? So piezo transducers pick up the vibrations sent through the metal of the sax, just like your thigh.

 

[Pee Dee]

Vibrations can be transmitted THROUGH a medium without it vibrating itself. Do you really think you can make a stiff brass tube vibrate with just your breath pressure? So piezo transducers pick up the vibrations sent through the metal of the sax, just like your thigh.

No, not just with breath pressure you probably can't, but with the sound vibrations emanating from the vibrating reed you can.

 

[Phil Edwards]

Stainless sax.... Interesting idea, but the material is really hard to work - so how would you produce the basic body shape, and the tone hole (which are drawn from the brass by pullling a ball through the body of the sax). One of the main reasons for using brass to build the body is it's ductility.

Ignoring the acoustic and other properties, the drawing of the tone holes would present no problems at all. I did my apprenticeship in brewery and dairy plant. Everything is made in stainless, and all the fabricated pipe joints - whether made in the workshop or on site - are made by drawing out a ball to form the junction for welding on the side branch.

And we would spin some pretty unusual shapes in stainless too - a sax bell would be no problem.

Phil

 

[Justin Chune]

Buffet used to make a copper sax, and very nice they looked as well. I believe that they are easily damaged. Aluminium might be easily damaged and too difficult to repair.

Jim.

 

[kevgermany]

Ignoring the acoustic and other properties, the drawing of the tone holes would present no problems at all. I did my apprenticeship in brewery and dairy plant. Everything is made in stainless, and all the fabricated pipe joints - whether made in the workshop or on site - are made by drawing out a ball to form the junction for welding on the side branch.

And we would spin some pretty unusual shapes in stainless too - a sax bell would be no problem.

Phil

I stand corrected!

 

[Pee Dee]

I stand corrected!

And me. Wrong again:crying: