Are these the same

[Chris]

The two chords in question are... BbMaj7#11 = BbMaj7Lyd

Thanks

Chris

 

[Pete Thomas]

The second one is not a chord symbol I recognise.

Lyd = short for Lydian mode? In which case it's a scale not a chord.

 

[Chris]

Pete, I am doing a track for "Blue in Green"..The 5th bar is Bbmaj7#11..Problem is BiaB won't take that chord but it will use Bbmaj7Lyd in the chord builder..Hence me asking the question..

Chris

 

[Tenor Viol]

Pete, I am doing a track for "Blue in Green"..The 5th bar is Bbmaj7#11..Problem is BiaB won't take that chord but it will use Bbmaj7Lyd in the chord builder..Hence me asking the question..

Chris

Don't know BiaB, but will it accept #4 as an alternative to #11?

 

[BigMartin]

I've no idea what BbMaj7Lyd is, but I just put it into BiaB and it didn't seem to be playing any E naturals, so I guess the answer is no, they're not the same.

 

[BigMartin]

Would BbMaj7b5 do the trick?

 

[Pete Thomas]

I don't know the tune, but often if there is a #11 in a chord, it's because that is the melody note. In which case you don't actually need it in the backing.

 

[Pete C]

Yes in BIAB world and on some jazz charts these days Bbmaj7lyd = Bbmaj7maj#11.

Pete

 

[Morgan Fry]

Another victim of the Real Book IMO.

I don't know the tune, but often if there is a #11 in a chord, it's because that is the melody note. In which case you don't actually need it in the backing.

This is pretty much the case here. In the original recording Miles sits on that E every chorus but nobody else in the tune plays it, whether Bill Evans' comping or Trane's chorus (all of which is double time compared to the trumpet choruses, BTW).

I don't know what changes you've got but it goes:

|:Gm7|A7#5|Dm7|Cm7 F7|BbMaj7(#11)|F7#5|Dm7|E7(#9b13)|Cm7|Dm7:|

In the above, all extensions are in the melody but not in the comping. If you're making a backing track I would leave bar 5 a BbMaj7 and leave bar 8 an E7, just keep in mind that that #11 (bar 5) and b13 (bar 8) are in the melody.

Another unusual thing about this tune (aside from the melody and the 10 bar form) is the time --

On Kind of Blue the piano and tenor choruses are double time (i.e. 5 bar form, not 10).

When Bill Evans would play this in trios later than this band he would play a couple of choruses, then double time a few, then double that, then step back down to the original tempo.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Another victim of the Real Book IMO.



This is pretty much the case here.

And in many many cases where you get chord charts. If the melody is an extension, it's safe to leave that extension from the backing.

It's never necessary for the comping harmony to double the melded as the note is there in the melody so the intent of the harmony is complete.

In the backing for solos, having that extension prescribed limits the soloist and/or the accompanist.

 

[Chris]

Thanks to all of you that have answered my OP. Morgan I have the same changes as you..BM b5 seems to work, so thanks for that.. PT thanks for the advice re extensions and melody notes..

Chris

 

[Morgan Fry]

Thanks to all of you that have answered my OP. Morgan I have the same changes as you..BM b5 seems to work, so thanks for that.. PT thanks for the advice re extensions and melody notes..

Chris

FWIW there is a huge difference between a b5 chord and a #11 chord, and I wouldn't substitute one for the other, especially here. With a #11, the E (say it's Bb chord) is in the right hand, you've got that major 7th interval between the 5th and the #11. With a b5, it's in the left hand, you've got a tritone underneath everything instead of a perfect 5th. It's a much different color, and takes away the "Majorness" of the chord. Listen to the original recording, Bill Evans has an F in the left hand every single time they get to that chord.

Point is, yes, b5 and #11 are the same note, but chord inversions matter.

 

[Tenor Viol]

Another victim of the Real Book IMO.



This is pretty much the case here. In the original recording Miles sits on that E every chorus but nobody else in the tune plays it, whether Bill Evans' comping or Trane's chorus (all of which is double time compared to the trumpet choruses, BTW).

I don't know what changes you've got but it goes:

|:Gm7|A7#5|Dm7|Cm7 F7|BbMaj7(#11)|F7#5|Dm7|E7(#9b13)|Cm7|Dm7:|

In the above, all extensions are in the melody but not in the comping. If you're making a backing track I would leave bar 5 a BbMaj7 and leave bar 8 an E7, just keep in mind that that #11 (bar 5) and b13 (bar 8) are in the melody.

Another unusual thing about this tune (aside from the melody and the 10 bar form) is the time --

On Kind of Blue the piano and tenor choruses are double time (i.e. 5 bar form, not 10).

When Bill Evans would play this in trios later than this band he would play a couple of choruses, then double time a few, then double that, then step back down to the original tempo.

Interesting. This was a common technique in C14th / C15th polyphony and known as 'isorhythm' (whence isorhythmic motets) where the (usually 3) lines would have different metrication in a strict ratioe.g. 4:3:2 (i.e. 4 passes through top part equals three through second equals two through third). They are fiendishly difficult rhythmically and highly syncopated. One of the great exponents was the English composer Dunstable, continental examples include Machaut and Dufay - try this as an example.

 

[Andrew Sanders]

I think Coltranes solo on this tune is sublime by the way. Makes me blub.

 

[Chris]

I think Coltranes solo on this tune is sublime by the way.

Couldn't have put it better myself Andrew, what is it they say " The right note at the right time"

Chris