Saxophones Altissimo on Baritone without Bis or F# Keys

[Ivan]

Various Circa 1930's baritones, such as (some, or all) Pan American, have neither Bis nor F# keys

With practice, is the altissimo range on these old beasts as acoustically reproducible as on modern horns, or are there notes that simply won't work or are little squeaks or farts?

 

[turf3]

What baritones don't have F# keys? Do you mean high F# keys? Most horns before 1960 didn't have this.

What baritones don't have bis Bb keys?

It is almost trivial to install a bis Bb, and only a little more involved to install a front F key, which is one that's actually useful for altissimo work.

 

[lydian]

I think Ivan may be confusing bis with front F.

 

[Pete Thomas]

What baritones don't have F# keys?

Martin Committee III. I had to use a fork fingering F#.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Dunno about what you’re describing, but altissimo is fine on my ‘37 12M.

 

[Woodpad]

Various Circa 1930's baritones, such as (some, or all) Pan American, have neither Bis nor F# keys

With practice, is the altissimo range on these old beasts as acoustically reproducible as on modern horns, or are there notes that simply won't work or are little squeaks or farts?

just find an extended altisimo fingering chart and look which notes can't be made on your instrument.

 

[Ivan]

I think Ivan may be confusing bis with front F.

Yes you're right, front F

I've made a complete arse of this thread

Somehow I can never remember which peripheral key is called what

 

[mark_addy]

I've got just about nowhere with this on a NW1 keyed to Eb. On a TT alto with no front F I can do acrobatics (replicating what that front F might do, were it there) to get to G. Sometimes.

 

[thomsax]

Saxes have different altissimo tones. Altissimo tones are tones out of the range of the sax. If you play a sax keyed to high Eb high E3, F3 and F#3 are altissimo tones.

On a modern baritone keyed (from low A to high F#3) I use the side F#3 key if there is a F# key. My "Griffentabelen"/"Fingering charts" says: Octave key + front F key + C key + side F# key. Or octave key + palm F + palm Eb + palm D key + side E key + side F# key.

I have no side F# key (can called alternative F# as well or trill F#). It's a good key if you want to avoid flip fingers F to F#.

 

[Pete Thomas]

alto with no front F I can do acrobatics (replicating what that front F might do, were it there)

Is this what you are doing?

Tips 1: Auxiliary F with no aux key - Taming The Saxophone

This is is how can get the high F aux fingering even if you don't have the aux key. Geat for altissimo on vintage saxophones

tamingthesaxophone.com

 

[mark_addy]

Is this what you are doing?

Tips 1: Auxiliary F with no aux key - Taming The Saxophone

This is is how can get the high F aux fingering even if you don't have the aux key. Geat for altissimo on vintage saxophones

tamingthesaxophone.com

Yes, thanks; I had not realised that the octave key made things 'different' and I have messed about with that a bit this afternoon on alto and annoyed my wife. I have been adding side Bb to that for a slightly-iffy F#, and then leaving all the same but taking off LH2 and adding RH1 for a high G. Many years ago I could do this with some fluidity - but as I get back into playing, perhaps it will come again. I never went higher than this.

I am still arguing with myself over whether to put down the best part of a grand on a fully-keyed baritone to be able to do this for my big band gig (where I have to solo a fair bit), or whether to stick with the ancient Conn. I'm not one for chopping and changing really. Perhaps I ought to take the plunge and sell it on if I don't really settle to it, but the bloody things are just so big to have lying around!

 

[turf3]

Martin Committee III. I had to use a fork fingering F#.

Yes, there is that one weirdo. WHAT were they thinking?

 

[turf3]

Yes, thanks; I had not realised that the octave key made things 'different' and I have messed about with that a bit this afternoon on alto and annoyed my wife. I have been adding side Bb to that for a slightly-iffy F#, and then leaving all the same but taking off LH2 and adding RH1 for a high G. Many years ago I could do this with some fluidity - but as I get back into playing, perhaps it will come again. I never went higher than this.

I am still arguing with myself over whether to put down the best part of a grand on a fully-keyed baritone to be able to do this for my big band gig (where I have to solo a fair bit), or whether to stick with the ancient Conn. I'm not one for chopping and changing really. Perhaps I ought to take the plunge and sell it on if I don't really settle to it, but the bloody things are just so big to have lying around!

Well, I've been playing the baritone chair in big bands since about 1982, and honestly I could count the times I really NEEDED altissimo on the fingers of one hand, if that often. High E and F, much more often, but given where those notes are in the range of the horn, it would be almost 100% certain that a lower note in the chord could be substituted and no one the wiser.

 

[mark_addy]

Well, I've been playing the baritone chair in big bands since about 1982, and honestly I could count the times I really NEEDED altissimo on the fingers of one hand, if that often. High E and F, much more often, but given where those notes are in the range of the horn, it would be almost 100% certain that a lower note in the chord could be substituted and no one the wiser.

You're speaking my (naturally tight-a***) language 🙂

 

[Ivan]

Well, I've been playing the baritone chair in big bands since about 1982, and honestly I could count the times I really NEEDED altissimo on the fingers of one hand...

What did you do when you needed those five, four, three, two or one thumb altissimo notes?

*Edit* Oh, I've re-read what you said, and you didn't play them

Crafty

 

[r. giuseppe]

Thorsten Köhler „Toko“ in Germany makes a nice little gadget, completely removable:

It gives you the chance to use your left index finger for the front F, although you have to depress B and this little thing with the side of your finger. For me the movement is similar enough to other sax sizes that I don’t have to relearn fingerings. It can be found here Front F Adapter
(the pic on the site is the same of my 1936 12M).

Alternatively you can use other fingerings which in the end I never did. Or you let someone trustworthy make a front F for your old Bari, if originality doesn’t matter to you. It can be done without committing a sin if done properly. But I think Toko’s solution is quite a good compromise. I actually use it.

 

[thomsax]

Thorsten Köhler „Toko“ in Germany makes a nice little gadget, completely removable: View attachment 33446

It gives you the chance to use your left index finger for the front F, although you have to depress B and this little thing with the side of your finger. For me the movement is similar enough to other sax sizes that I don’t have to relearn fingerings. It can be found here Front F Adapter
(the pic on the site is the same of my 1936 12M).

Alternatively you can use other fingerings which in the end I never did. Or you let someone trustworthy make a front F for your old Bari, if originality doesn’t matter to you. It can be done without committing a sin if done properly. But I think Toko’s solution is quite a good compromise. I actually use it.

Interesting. Thanks for posting. Köhler sounds familiar when it comes to saxes and sax building!