Miscellaneous (Air Source) Heat pump

rhysonsax · May 3, 2022

thomsax said:
Why didn't she listened to her father?

Does anyone (even though dad does know best) ?

Rhys

lydian · May 3, 2022

I don't know what energy costs are like in the UK, but in my part of the US, my mother's heat pump (air) cost her an average of $300/month (240 pounds?) in winter. Whereas my gas bill in winter was half that in spite of my home being twice as large. So you could extrapolate that gas was 75% cheaper than electric, very similar to @thomsax's experience. However, she has a single heat pump for heating and cooling, but I have 2 air conditioners and 2 gas furnaces, one pair for each floor of my home. So the initial system cost is higher, mostly due to the size of my house.

The only place a heat pump makes economic sense is in a very mild climate. If it gets below freezing, it will cost a fortune.

mizmar · May 3, 2022

lydian said:
The only place a heat pump makes economic sense is in a very mild climate. If it gets below freezing, it will cost a fortune.

I'm not sure that's always true. We have to air-to-air heat pumps and they're good to well below zero (-15⁰C and below, things get tough); certainly better than our only alternative which is electric panel heating. Both are, however, green as the local electrons are Hydroelectric... Which is part of the whole point in the government grants for heat pumps thing.

eb424 · May 3, 2022

yep gas everytime for me and with current control legislation it's as economic as electric at least...

lydian · May 3, 2022

mizmar said:
I'm not sure that's always true. We have to air-to-air heat pumps and they're good to well below zero (-15 and below, things get tough); certainly better than our only alternative which is electric panel heating. Both are, however, green as the local electrons are Hydroelectric... Which is part of the whole point in the government grants for heat pumps thing.

Maybe the technology is better over there. Below freezing, my mother's would run constantly and turn on the auxiliary electric heat elements, making the costs skyrocket.

mizmar · May 3, 2022

lydian said:
Maybe the technology is better over there. Below freezing, my mother's would run constantly and turn on the auxiliary electric heat elements, making the costs skyrocket.

Well in threads like this it's impossible to compare.
There's nothing technology magic about heat pumps - they're just inside-out fridges - and they certainly don't pack up at 0⁰C. But if the house isn't well insulated etc. Who knows.

Also of note. At least twice in this thread a bloke has compared their heating set-up to a woman's (one daughter, one mum)... But, on average women do prefer a higher ambient temperature. Not that that explains the big differences, of course. But these comparisons aren't perfect in many ways.

Pete Thomas · May 3, 2022

lydian said:
Maybe the technology is better over there.

The technology is just better overall in recent years.

mizmar · May 4, 2022

mizmar said:
Well in threads like this it's impossible to compare.

Here's a thought.
Our master bedroom is very well insulated, double glazed and points south with a reasonable view of the sky; and is at the other end of a landing to the upstairs heat exchanger. Even during weeks of -20⁰C spells, we've never had to turn on it's panel heater. The room pointing north... Struggles.
The same house in more or less shadow, better or worse greenhousing or insulation could easily change the story one way or the other by a huge amount.

It's hard to compare.

thomsax · May 4, 2022

Pete Thomas said:
The technology is just better overall in recent years.

That's true. But how about the buildings. That's the weak link. My house has less or no isolation. It's 2 brick in the walls, c 30-35 cm. Bricks (massive, burned clay) absorb energy. We have pretty much the same indoor temp winter as summer. The weak link in this construction is when it's windy. "- Install a heat pump". says my clever and urban friends. The money I save goes to Rock & Roll Saxopne and to saxes. They spend thier money on high energy bills.

mizmar · May 4, 2022

thomsax said:
But how about the buildings...It's 2 brick in the wall

Yeah! I bet, back in 1893, some young chap was going "wood?! That's so like 1700s peasant style!. Brick is the thing now..."
And the 1893 father was like "hufta! Think of the winter"

Targa · May 4, 2022

If you want to save money on energy bills when you're cold put some more clothes on. I usually only have the heating on for three hours in the evening for the three winter months and the occasional hour if really needed.

Iain · May 4, 2022

I live in Helsinki, in a large traditional Scandinavian wooden house on three floors.
Three years ago we installed two air pumps mainly as air-conditioners in the summer.

Two years ago, it became apparent that our 20 year old oil fired system was reaching the end of its life.

Circulatings air pumps and also ground source are very popular here in Scandinavia. I contacted a specialist contractor who offered to send a surveyor to see if a circulating ASHP would suit the property.

He made it clear that, to be a viable option, the house needed to be well-insulated, and the piping/radiators of sufficient bore. Our house met the requirements and we received an offer of Euro 11k to remove the old boiler and replace it with a Mitsubishi Ecodan system.

We were also eligible for a 4k improvement grant.

The work was completed in a single day, and the system was commissioned the next day.

It has now been running for two years. Winters here are much colder than the UK. -20c is not unusual. The house is divided into 2 heating zones with the living area at +22c. The top and basement floors are at 20c.

There is hot water in abundance at 52c. The system automatically icreases this to 60c for one hour a week to kill any bacteria.

Despite rising energy costs, this system has proved to be 30% cheaper to run than oil.

I am very happy with the decision.

Iain

Iain · May 4, 2022

Wonko said:
Interesting!
I have been thinking about converting our existing system, and I was wondering if it is possible to use a heat pump in combination with conventional radiators. I had heard that these systems work (best) with floot heating.
Is your system up and running already?

We are using existing pipes and radiators. The surveyor told us that pipes above 15mm were usually ok, but microbore, popular in the Uk, was not.

thomsax · May 4, 2022

One of my friends built a "passive" house (no heating system at all). And it's working. But during the construction time it was raining a lot and water came into the construction. They took a chance and did not built the big tent to cover the built place .... . The house was very expensive. The energy consumtion should be soo low ... When they were ready to move in they discovered the the humidifiers that dried out their house consumed more energy than the house was supposed to consume for the next 20-30 years!!!

I like wood and fire because ......

I don't want to pay more taxes than neccessary. 30-40 % of energy prices (gas, oil, pertol eletricity) in Sweden is taxes. And I like dealing with fire and to increase the wood pellet boiler and the wood pellet burner efficiency. Nice clean flame, correct chimney draft, white smoke from chimey .... .
Every time I vacuum the boiler/burner and I carry out soot and ashes I save money. I spend some money on having a Rock & Roll Sax player to come over from USA to play with us and to spread the Rock & Roll Saxophone evangel. Rock On.

Iain · May 10, 2022

lydian said:
I don't know what energy costs are like in the UK, but in my part of the US, my mother's heat pump (air) cost her an average of $300/month (240 pounds?) in winter. Whereas my gas bill in winter was half that in spite of my home being twice as large. So you could extrapolate that gas was 75% cheaper than electric, very similar to @thomsax's experience. However, she has a single heat pump for heating and cooling, but I have 2 air conditioners and 2 gas furnaces, one pair for each floor of my home. So the initial system cost is higher, mostly due to the size of my house.

The only place a heat pump makes economic sense is in a very mild climate. If it gets below freezing, it will cost a fortune.

And yet heat pumps are the system on choice here in Scandinavia.

Pete Thomas · May 10, 2022