Beginner impro A Major 6th ? Why?

[kernewegor]

I'm glad jtbsax has raised the subject of clarinets.

It is well known (quoting Mma Ramotswe again) that clarinets are schizophrenic.

If you play a Bb clarinet in the upper register you will play in tune with a tenor saxophonist using the same fingering. Six fingers on (plus the thumb hole on clarinet) gived D, five fingers gives E and so on. (The key arrangements are a little bit bit different here and there above C).

In the lower register if you use the same fingering on the clarinet you will be playing in tune with an alto sax... (non-clarinet players may show signs of stress at this point). Now the alto sax player, with six fingers down, will call what he is playing D, but the clarinettist - with the same fingering - will perversely call what he is playing G - and a pianist, even more irritatingly, will play what he calls a C and they would all be in tune (if in different octaves).

So the clarinet thinks its an Eb instrument in the lower register, but a Bb instrument in the upper... (non-clarinetists might want a drink at this point. They might also decide never to double on a clarinet) I'd like to know who decided it was a Bb instrument rather that Eb...

If you play clarinet, alto and tenor sax, with very little practice you can use your knowledge of clarinet registers to transpose by sight tenor parts to alto and vice versa. Which is a bit of consolation for having to learn a different fingering for the two registers (not to mention altissimo...)

You need a clear head, though - a glass or three and its easy to do it the wrong way around, with interesting results...

 

[jbtsax]

Don't forget that playing bassoon you can incorporate your low register clarinet fingerings as well for notes that have the same name.

 

[Profusia]

If a tenor sax player trained him/herself to finger the middle finger of the left hand and call that Bb, etc. and play from music in concert pitch---would that make the tenor sax he is playing a "non-transposing" instrument. Remember, nothing has changed but the thought process of the player.

I would imagine though that if the tenor saxophone had been developed alone as the only saxophone, and without consideration for the ensembles in which it would be played, then the keys would indeed have been thought of and taught as a full tone down. However, as a member of a family of instruments it seems to me that each one is designed to help players by keeping consistency of fingering across the family, the penalty being that the instrument transposes the note relative to the one being "thought". I don't think anyone would suggest that instruments have any choice in the matter, but more that they transpose by design in order to be helpful. But I still think its a moot point so long as everyone understands what's actually happening rather than what we call it. I agree that the only true transposition would be an instrument into which if you actually sounded a note, it played a different note back.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I believe the Boehm system of fingering standardises most modern wind instruments. The universal trainer , the recorder is the starting point for most players starting as children. Lots of instruments transpose. Wasn't the saxophone invented as a marching / military band instrument and to be compatible with brass instruments, many of which are in Bb and Eb. We can all then play off the same page.

The longer you play the less this transposing business bothers you. I started on recorders, which familiarised me to the concept of the same fingerings producing different notes. Moving onto the clarinet further utilises that concept.

Part of my practice routine is to put a simple C part on the music stand, and play the concert pitches on the alto. It's surprising how quickly this becomes second nature. I tend to use a piece I am familiar with and can hear the mistakes. Reading a tone up for a Bb instrument is easier and should be within the capabilities of any serious player.

The dual personality of the clarinet gives me a head ache. Alto in the bottom register and soprano in the upper. It's a relief to return to the simplicity of the saxophone.

I think modern technology that can transpose at the press of a button has simplified the process but has robbed players of the practice and the resulting mental agility. It was all done with a pencil when I started and a rubber of course.

 

[kevgermany]

Wasn't the saxophone invented as a marching / military band instrument and to be compatible with brass instruments, many of which are in Bb and Eb. We can all then play off the same page.

Yes, with a planned/prototyped complementary series in C & F for orchestral use.

The military side was successful, the orchestral rather a flop.

 

[old git]

Yes, with a planned/prototyped complementary series in C & F for orchestral use.

The military side was successful, the orchestral rather a flop.

Believe that the C/F series were non transposing. Pity they're most likely high pitch or you could delete this gubbins.

 

[kevgermany]

Believe that the C/F series were non transposing. Pity they're most likely high pitch or you could delete this gubbins.

F non-transposing?

And anyway there's still the octave difference... C bass was made for instance.

 

[Targa]

F non-transposing?

And anyway there's still the octave difference... C bass was made for instance.

C bass - that sounds like something I should look into.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Sounds more like something you should batter and fry.

 

[BrianJoeSandy]

Just think for concert Bb Alto G Tenor C.

So if you conflate the circle of 5ths with a clock face and fifths going clockwise then altos are always fast by 5 minutes when compared with tenors. Easy to remember.

 

[saxplorer]

So if you conflate the circle of 5ths with a clock face and fifths going clockwise then altos are always fast by 5 minutes when compared with tenors. Easy to remember.

Exactly! and a quarter past concert .....

 

[BrianJoeSandy]

a Victorian alteration to the existing one hundred pounds equals a hundredweight standard.

and there are a hundred links in a chain and an inch of water on an acre weighs a ton.

 

[Profusia]

Sorry only just spotted this.

I like the bit about "the vast majority of toddlers"...

lol thanks, good to know that not all of my little gems are completely lost here ;}

I agree that all students are not the same and there can be many reasons for this. One problem which is very common is that the student has never learned how to learn effectively.

Sounds really very interesting - I can well believe that I haven't learned the best way to learn so to speak. Something I might look into further at some point.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the question of detail though. Learning a foreign language is a good example, and for me having some detail and rules on conjugation of verbs really helped me progress with Spanish when all previous attempts had failed. Knowing the rules isn't about using them in live situations to work out how to speak though - that's not the reason they are worth knowing. Wrong thread to go into detail or debate on that though.