Tech/maintenance A general thread on DIY repair

[mark_addy]

Thanks again. I found my mystery bit of stainless bar. I must have picked it up when a set of labs I used to work at was knocked down, over 20 years ago. It turns out to be about 10' long, so I guess I have something to play with. I'll look for some larger diameter bits if I need to make a closer. (Your point about the locking dimple for the collet suggests you work the crook around and around as you go. And would you anneal it, or go cold? I lack confidence with hot work so I hope the latter).

Maybe this conversation is timely; I mentioned that I thought I would not need to do this again, but on closer inspection my new-to-me baritone appears to have issues around here. The 'split' which the crook thumb screw operates on has been overdone a little, and there is a hairline crack appearing. I would tend to put 2 pairs of glasses on, strong light, and drill a tiny hole at the end of this crack - is that normal in instrument repair?

I'll post some photos when I make the spreader.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Thanks again. I found my mystery bit of stainless bar. I must have picked it up when a set of labs I used to work at was knocked down, over 20 years ago. It turns out to be about 10' long, so I guess I have something to play with. I'll look for some larger diameter bits if I need to make a closer. (Your point about the locking dimple for the collet suggests you work the crook around and around as you go. And would you anneal it, or go cold? I lack confidence with hot work so I hope the latter).

Maybe this conversation is timely; I mentioned that I thought I would not need to do this again, but on closer inspection my new-to-me baritone appears to have issues around here. The 'split' which the crook thumb screw operates on has been overdone a little, and there is a hairline crack appearing. I would tend to put 2 pairs of glasses on, strong light, and drill a tiny hole at the end of this crack - is that normal in instrument repair?

I'll post some photos when I make the spreader.

Always cold. If you have to anneal a sleeve you might just as well make a new one that's a perfect fit right off the lathe.
You generally work the crook around...but you really do have to get a feel for how much pressure you can put on the crook tube before it gives way and bends. It's not a lot.
You can also use an expand and rotate technique whereby you tighten up the expander to the point where you would have difficulty moving the crook, then back it off and rotate the crook a quarter turn. Rinse and repeat.
I often use both methods, finishing up with working the crook around as a means of evening everything out.

It takes patience. If you crank the tool up hard you risk splitting the tenon.
You also have to consider whether the crook socket is round and/or tapered through wear. But that's another job and another set of tools.

I never drill crack reliefs. They occur because a loose joint leads to excessive stress on the socket when the locking screw is wound right in to take up the free play. Remove the free play so that all the lock screw has to do is just pinch up the socket and that crack will have no further reason to move.
If the crack is much longer than a millimeter or two then you're better off fitting a patch over it rather than removing any more material.

 

[mark_addy]

Great, that's all really helpful.

I struggle with my head a bit, and as a result jobs well off the critical path (like this one) are often the ones that get done first! I'm looking forward to it; thanks for your encouragement.

Now I think of it, that sticker in our old sax case might have been for 'Billy Amstell', not Bill Lewington. Does that make sense, I wonder?

 

[Stephen Howard]

Great, that's all really helpful.

I struggle with my head a bit, and as a result jobs well off the critical path (like this one) are often the ones that get done first! I'm looking forward to it; thanks for your encouragement.

That's not struggling with your head - that's logical prioritisation! Fat lot of good setting pads to the Nth degree when you have air p*ssing out of the crook joint. Make absolutely no mistake - it's a critical path.
Do the Big Stuff first. Get it done and dusted. You want to be in a position where the action and the pads almost fall into place of their own accord. Anything less than that says you've missed something along the way.

 

[PigSquealer]

@mark_addy i don’t have much to add that Stephen didn’t already cover.
I have a mechanical and hydraulic pedal expanders. The hydraulic unit is for expanding copper or brass pipe, a plumbers tool.
Extreme caution in use is needed so you don’t install creases. Work & rotating frequently is a must. Not a tool for the beginner DIY. You know what you’re doing.

The second weapon is the can opener style. This too takes patience, understanding and skill to yield a good result.

Check that the reciever is true.

I check fit with marking dye or coating from sharpie pen.

Check the solder joint.

Make a stopper plug for leak test. Bottom has star lock washer soldered to flat washer. Nut soldered to flat one. Soft rubber sandwiched between washers. Like a boat drain plug. Undercut so tenon can hit home.

 

[mark_addy]

Flipping heck, this is a can of worms! I have some telescopic bore gauges; I'm more of a Vernier / 'very-near' bloke, though my experience this morning with the stopper shows this is close tolerance stuff, so out comes the mic. I have an odd, nice one (not digital) which is both metric and English - I'll try to remember to take a photo as it might be interesting.

I've found the bits I need to make Stephen's expander (I think the male taper might be brass, as I seem to have some thick wall brass tube of about the right dimensions). Your hydraulic setup looks really powerful, and in my hands potentially catastrophic! I do have such a pump (it's on the end of a hose with a remote ram) - but I think something a little more low-key might suit me to start with. This is all amazing info - it's very good of you both to share it, given this is your income. OK, not everyone wants to have a go (and has 10 feet of 1" stainless bar propped up behind the downspout at the back of the house 🙂 ).

Thanks again both for being generous with your photos. I know it's a hassle to take such a lot, and know where they are.

 

[PigSquealer]

Just when you think you have every tool on the planet….you buy more tools to make more tools that are too expensive to buy 🤣
What’s a party without good company ? Misery loves good company.
Yo Mark, pass me that 96.5” box end behind the tool shed please. Aww shoot, too small. Is you end mill working ?

 

[mark_addy]

Ohhhhhh. My 'milling machine' isn't big enough for that 🙂 If you have a spare 10 minutes, have a flick through this tale of woe. Actually, it works OK now, but it is a whole lot easier to stay late at work and use the Bridgeport in the lab!

(I might not need to stay on-topic too tightly on my own smorgasbord thread, and the mods here seem pretty easy-going - but the thing towards the end of the thread below which looks like a horizontal miller that shrank in the wash, might be what I put the slots in with on this expander thing when I get that far. Or I might go freehand with a skinny disk on an angle grinder - I am a butcher, really, as my Dad (precision turner) used to say).

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/adapting-a-pillar-drill-for-vertical-milling-new-chuck.25047/

 

[PigSquealer]

You’re a certified tech Loon 🤣 I love it !
I don’t think I have any blood relatives in the UK, but I think it’s highly possible we share some DNA.
FWIW, I too didn’t know about the bearing size markings. I’ve had a ton of 6205’s in my hands. The last letters after the number is the shielding or seal type and one side or two. That I knew from being asked by spares man.

How to Read & Identify Bearing Numbers: A Complete Guide

Bearing numbers are essential for identifying the type, size, and features of a bearing. This guide explains how to read and decode bearing numbers — including prefixes, basic designations, and suffixes — to help you make the right selection for your application.

www.bearingmaker.com

 

[turf3]

For real tight fitting of parts to a snug fit, like a sax tenon, measuring only gets you near, and then you have to work the parts in to fit by gently expanding and checking and identifying low and high spots. There are so many ways to get fooled with OD measurements, and even more ways with ID measurements, that it's better to use the parts themselves as gages for each other.

 

[PigSquealer]

For real tight fitting of parts to a snug fit, like a sax tenon, measuring only gets you near, and then you have to work the parts in to fit by gently expanding and checking and identifying low and high spots. There are so many ways to get fooled with OD measurements, and even more ways with ID measurements, that it's better to use the parts themselves as gages for each other.

The measurements are nothing more than information to work with. A semi diagnostic starting point review. IMHO this takes some of the guesswork out. IE what side needs what. I’ve had receivers and tenons way out of round that visually looked ok.
The last couple thousandths I fit by hand. Ruling dye is thicker than marking with a chiseled tip sharpie.

Largely it’s metalsmith skill of observation. How thick is the tenon ? Quality of the metal. Judgment of condition/ damage. Tools at hand. Risk assessment if something goes sideways (wrong).

I’ve seen dirt roads in better shape than this tenon.

Still I was able to achieve a quality fit on a 1940 part.

Lots of metal remaining for long life. Both metal forming and shaving techniques used.

 

[mark_addy]

After all this help, here is something to show some progress. One pic shows me cutting some of that stainless bar, which took ages. It was such a sod to turn on a small bendy lathe at home - not really rigid enough for tip tools, and stainless is a bit hard for HSS. So I did it at work, and then f****d it at the last minute (I'm not going to show you that pic, I buried it at the bottom of the skip!). And then I thought I'm not doing all that again, so this one is in mild steel. You can see I cut the slots freehand with a skinny disc in a grinder!

 

[mark_addy]

It turned out to be a productive day, kind of. I had hoped that expanding madrel would serve for my altos (close to 22mm) and baritone (closer to 23mm), so I made it small. I made a difference on the baritone, but the wedge part was half way down the bore towards the end and there is too much flexure in the leaves to really stick the boot in. I took absolutely ages doing it, because I didn't want to overcook it. So I think I'll make another at 22.7mm OD 'at rest' and take it from there. @Stephen Howard , I can see why your one with the lump on the end might come in handy for expanding the top bit next to the ring which joins tenon to the rest of the crook - rather stiff up there.

In other news, and very unphotographed not least because I guess it would be boring, I had the Martin bottom stack apart 25 times this afternoon (and some bits up the top too) - everything now works, and it was a predictable right ball-ache taking it apart, gluing bits of cork here and there, putting it back together, seeing where it was now holding things off, and taking it apart to slim things down a bit. I _think_ I got to the end of it, and was pleased with myself to work out that the last guy in there mixed up the rod for B/Bb and the lower stack rod, which are only 3/16" different in length. I'll remember how that goes together until about a week before I next need to do it, I should think.

The rubber band for top C# now is replaced by a proper spring, but low C# is still hair-band enabled; it turns out the hole for the spring will take a #52 drill (about 1.6mm dia) but the spring that was in there is only about 1.1mm OD. So a couple are on order from 'Windplus' who also sold me a couple of pads a while back. When I did the top spring I squashed the last couple of mm flat in a vice with plain jaws, and then lightly tapped it into the back of the pillar with a small punch. I hope that's the right idea to fix them. I guess they are meant to bear say 1/2 way down the taper at their end?

cheers
Mark, Manchester

 

[Stephen Howard]

First up - nope, tapping in a needle spring is not the way to go; it should be pressed in (with a pair of spring pliers). Reason being that tapping a pillar may shift its position...and if you've very unlucky, pop the thing off the body completely.
Also, no point faffing around with a vice in order to put the flat on....just tap it out with a hammer on an anvil. If you like you can always heat the extreme tip of the flat end to red hot to anneal it. If you haven't got an anvil, stick an upturned hammer in the vice and use the face as an anvil.

Secondly, you shouldn't need to dismantle a stack in order to adjust the regulation buffers. If you've used cork you can use narrow strips of sandpaper/wet 'n dry to adjust them, or a heated piece of metal to iron felt. You can even glue the buffers on after the stack's been assembled - which gives you the opportunity to try various buffer thickness for size.

As for the expanders - unless you're certain about your dimensions it never hurts to make the things slightly bigger than you need. Even with the slots cut you can still chuck them back in the lathe and skim them a little. It helps if the wedge is installed and very lightly tightened. Use another nut or some threadlock to secure the wedge in place.
It'll be a very interrupted cut...so go carefully, and don't forget to round the edges of the slots off afterwards.

Don't worry too much about getting the tenon sleeve to fit at the top. Yeah, it's nice to but in practical terms provided you have a good fit down the bottom end you're not going to get any leaks. It's really more about make the clamp mechanism more effective.

 

[PigSquealer]

See my spring notes starting at post #124. You want a slight taper or dovetail on end as pressed into pillar. Not a whale tail.

https://www.saxontheweb.net/posts/4435225/

Another tool to make 🤣. Press springs in or out.

 

[mark_addy]

See my spring notes starting at post #124. You want a slight taper or dovetail on end as pressed into pillar. Not a whale tail.

https://www.saxontheweb.net/posts/4435225/

Another tool to make 🤣. Press springs in or out.
View attachment 35643

OK, when Stephen mentioned pliers, that's the kind of thing that came to mind. Are they wide enough to span a whole spring to press _out_? I just gave my 17-yr-old nephew a massive pile of 'doubles' - tools I already have one of (in truth, they were 'trebles' or even worse). So normal sources are depleted - I might need to dig at our museum for a fecked pair of pliers to abuse 🙂

A bit down your thread you gave a link for, you show an end-float problem. I made a 6BA (it's an older UK spec for small threads) spacer for the Martin low C/D# stuff - unusually they both sit on the same rod - today due to the same issue, but bottom notes got harder as the pads could no longer float about to find a seat. So I removed it until one day I fit some new pads, and I'll tolerate a bit of clatter.

 

[mark_addy]

As for the expanders - unless you're certain about your dimensions it never hurts to make the things slightly bigger than you need. Even with the slots cut you can still chuck them back in the lathe and skim them a little. It helps if the wedge is installed and very lightly tightened. Use another nut or some threadlock to secure the wedge in place.
It'll be a very interrupted cut...so go carefully, and don't forget to round the edges of the slots off afterwards.

Thanks for all your helpful comments. This one made me smile - that's how I turned my first attempt into a flipping propeller, when I remembered I hadn't put the slow taper around the outside, *after* I cut the slots. It dug in a little, and - ker-splam! So I think I'll make another to size, and taper, and then cut slots, in that order 🙂 Rounding off the edges - yes, it struck me I was operating with something that looked a lot like a reamer, although as soon as the wedge takes up and it expands a bit, it mainly bears on the middle of the leaves and the slot edges don't get much of a chance to get their teeth in.

 

[PigSquealer]

Are they wide enough to span a whole spring to press _out_?

No, I cut the spring leaving 2-3mm exposed. To press out a full sized spring, grab the long side just beyond the pillar with pliers. With second pliers squeeze out. Use smooth face tools or protect the surfaces.

….normal sources are depleted - I might need to dig at our museum for a fecked pair of pliers to abuse 🙂

All the doubles or triples “that i don’t need, haven’t used in years”… then one day you start fiddling with saxophones.
That pair I used was in the garbage pile. Pure junk that have surprisingly lasted. Think I acquired those mid ‘80s in a roadside emergency tool kit.

 

[PigSquealer]

A bit down your thread you gave a link for, you show an end-float problem. I made a 6BA (it's an older UK spec for small threads) spacer for the Martin low C/D# stuff - unusually they both sit on the same rod - today due to the same issue, but bottom notes got harder as the pads could no longer float about to find a seat. So I removed it until one day I fit some new pads, and I'll tolerate a bit of clatter.

Stephen has a great archive.

Stephen Howard Woodwind - Specialist saxophone repairs, tweaks and maintenance.

Stephen Howard Woodwind. The leading resource for sax repair, care and maintenance - and independent reviews from the workbench.

www.shwoodwind.co.uk

I’ve got article bits spread all over.
Making parts you can’t find.
https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/making-parts-you-can’t-find.36320/

Somewhere I posted a thread on restoring a Klingson tenor. Distance spacers were fabricated on several barrels.

 

[mark_addy]

Thanks @PigSquealer - I've read Stephen's 'Handcraft' review, but I didn't realise he had a maintenance archive. There's some reading there! And speaking of such - @Stephen Howard mentioned ironing felts to make them thinner. I bet there isn't a secret method to make them thicker (barring peeling them off and putting a new bit on that's too thick, and then...etc etc)? On this Martin RH2 (E) is an arm which gets involved with the fork Eb (which seems to work OK here) - and lands loose (that is - has its own separate pivot) on the top of the E key cup with a bit of felt in-between. Insertion of a handy piece of emery paper (handy in that it grips the felt and stays put) suggests that I need a bit more thickness in there to get a good seal on the E pad. I just replaced the corks which hold down G# and Bb from the RH stack, and all that works well now.

I can do this with an instrument which is mostly 'there'. If I was starting with a wreck with new pads and no cork, I would be bending your ear(s) about what order to do this in, or all this interrelated stuff would spiral off into an optimisation that never converges on a solution!

Edit to add: perhaps you were being kind by not pointing me first in the direction of Stephen's 'black museum'... I am not sure I would have started this thread if I had read there first!