Tech/maintenance 1923 Elkhart Band Instrument Company Alto Adventures

[PigSquealer]

You go to removing pad leaks FIRST.
When you are confident those have been addressed...and the horn is still acting up...THEN you go looking for the Zebra. My two cents...

He already stated the pads are sealing well with a light squeeze but not a gorilla grip.
Yeah, that neck leak is not awful. Was worth checking though.
I’m guessing a leak or regulation related leak. Second guess, key heights are to low ?

 

[PigSquealer]

I keep telling myself I bought this box of parts as a challenge and I should not be surprised when things are not going smoothly.

Adventurous learning is very rewarding. You’ll cross the finish line 🏁

FWIW you’re still scaring me with the thought of using lapping compound and petal expander.

 

[JayeNM]

He already stated the pads are sealing well with a light squeeze but not a gorilla grip.
Yeah, that neck leak is not awful. Was worth checking though.
I’m guessing a leak or regulation related leak. Second guess, key heights are to low ?

But his description of the SYMPTOMS when he tries to play it indicate fairly clearly the pads are NOT likely sealing well.
Also he did note he is new at this.

How many horns did you do before you actually got properly sealing pads down ?

Took me around 6-8 horns. All that came before had to be revisited, some frequently, to finally get them close to decently sealing.

That a novice nailed it out of the gate ?.....no disrespect to OP at all, but...that would fairly unlikely.

 

[PigSquealer]

But his description of the SYMPTOMS when he tries to play it indicate fairly clearly the pads are NOT likely sealing well.
Also he did note he is new at this.

How many horns did you do before you actually got properly sealing pads down ?

Took me around 6-8 horns. All that came before had to be revisited, some frequently, to finally get them close to decently sealing.

That a novice nailed it out of the gate ?.....no disrespect to OP at all, but...that would fairly unlikely.

Yes all this is true. Neither of us have the sax in front of us. We can only go with the reported observation.
Honestly I believe the pads are sealing… on the bench with a leak light. “As played” there can be massive leaks if the action is sloppy or regulation is off. Then there’s the chance of a pad leaking through the rivet or a bow joint leak.
The rubber glove test is available to most all DIY technicians. Cheap too.

 

[pgboyd]

Adventurous learning is very rewarding. You’ll cross the finish line 🏁

FWIW you’re still scaring me with the thought of using lapping compound and petal expander.

What are your concerns? Cracking through the neck tenon? I found the Ferree’s petal expander to be very difficult to overdo - just a few light turns. Anything more would probably require a good vise and twisting the screw with a large wrench.

The inside of the receiver has a number of mysterious ridges - almost like someone scored the inside with a metal lathe. I don’t think anyone would actually do that but the ridges are very difficult to miss.

Very light lapping and removing about 1 mm of the bottom of the neck has made the fit much better. A thin coating of Tite Bond around the top of the tube where the bottom of the neck tenon sits was added yesterday. I hope to address my poor spring fit and leak test again today.

It would have been nice to have gotten the springs right the first or second time. On the other hand I’m getting better at removing and reinstalling the keys.

 

[pgboyd]

Some progress today in identifying leaks. The neck octave key isn’t sealing well. The spring seems weak. The entire octave mechanism also needs some adjustment. It doesn’t freely move back to starting position after pushing the octave button.

Just about all of the key heights were too low. I taped down the neck octave key and was able to get okay sound from the top stack. Still stuffy but I think that is related to key height being too low. The low stack is still playing an octave too high and most of that seems to be problems with the G# key not sealing shut. I need to rework the spring tension.

The neck doesn’t seem to be leaking so a small win there.

 

[JayeNM]

Nice job , so as i suspected after the neck work it still leaked. you are going about it in sequence now. If octave jumping at F and below check the side/backdoor key sealing as well and double check upper stack seal...a small leak in the C pad could be acting like an octave hole up there. Also check relationship between upper stack A and Bis. Everything leak free there ?

 

[PigSquealer]

What are your concerns? Cracking through the neck tenon? I found the Ferree’s petal expander to be very difficult to overdo - just a few light turns. Anything more would probably require a good vise and twisting the screw with a large wrench.

Lapping, I’ve had the pleasure of helping guys that completely bonded a neck in place.

Petal expanding or shrinking collars.
The inside or outside needs to be very clean. Expanding is a very gentle process. Incremental adjustment and smoothly rotating the tool. Keep the surfaces lubricated to prevent galling the metal.
A slight over adjustment can leave ridges where the flute gaps are. Same goes for shrinking collars. The joint will be tight on the ridges and not sealing.
You did well.

The inside of the receiver has a number of mysterious ridges - almost like someone scored the inside with a metal lathe. I don’t think anyone would actually do that but the ridges are very difficult to miss.

Tool marks ? Could be from an attempt using a plumbers tubing expander to round the part ?

Very light lapping and removing about 1 mm of the bottom of the neck has made the fit much better. A thin coating of Tite Bond around the top of the tube where the bottom of the neck tenon sits was added yesterday.

Good job on the adjustment. Interesting use of Titebond. Hope you use the waterproof grade.

 

[PigSquealer]

This could be a leak.

The spring may not sitting flat against the key. Over tightening can make a raised area around the threaded hole. Take a fine jewelers file and knock it down.

The pad be a bit thick too. I see no arc in the spring ??
Check all to see how they contract the box. Flat or a slight up curl. Not digging in.

Your spring here I would leave alone. I see other areas that need review first. RE octave system. Including the neck octave key.

 

[PigSquealer]

Also check relationship between upper stack A and Bis. Everything leak free there ?

I see this too.

 

[PigSquealer]

Some progress today in identifying leaks. The neck octave key isn’t sealing well. The spring seems weak. The entire octave mechanism also needs some adjustment. It doesn’t freely move back to starting position after pushing the octave button.

The neck doesn’t seem to be leaking so a small win there.

Good job sorting the neck fit best you can🏆

Back to checking each system,
****The neck octave key isn’t sealing well. The spring seems weak****
You have a non original neck. The key fulcrum may different. Still the key should close “as played” in front of you. Neck in hand, cover the tenon with your palm. If you don’t like the taste of cork grease use a mouthpiece and blow. Operating the key by finger. open-close-open-close, sealing practically under its own weight. If not refit the pad. Test again.
Next hold the neck in different positions, point at sky, floor and inverted. It it’s staying closed you’re good. Excessive spring tension can fight the lower system function.

****I taped down the neck octave key and was able to get okay sound from the top stack****
Lots of small stuff needs review first.
Don’t go adjusting just yet…I see more to review.

 

[PigSquealer]

Just about all of the key heights were too low. I taped down the neck octave key and was able to get okay sound from the top stack. Still stuffy but I think that is related to key height being too low. The low stack is still playing an octave too high and most of that seems to be problems with the G# key not sealing shut. I need to rework the spring tension.

Do the stacks look level / inline within the group ? No one key visually higher or lower ? A common mistake is too thick of cork between top of keyfoot and backbar. Normally Ya can’t remove enough under the foot to open the height.
G# to D or C to G should be reasonably level at start or something is off.

Sax horizontal as above ⬆️
Disconnect the G# springs(2). Hold the touch down and lift & release the keycup. It should fall freely under its own weight. The spring tension is set just enough to open it with positive action, no bounce. Too much tension and the touch closing spring requires more force…and that’s giving your pinky a workout 💪.

Make sure the hinge rod is not loose in pillars.
Make sure the key barrel is not loose on hinge rod.
The part moves freely.
Tone hole level to reasonable level.
Medium hard felt pad construction will be more forgiving.
Get the pad to seal with a light touch and just a fuzz early to hinge side.

 

[PigSquealer]

Back to the body octave system.
The material in guide blocks at top. Remove for now.
Review alignment of octave key arm (the one with pad) and the clearance to touch arm tuning fork. It looks too close.

The roller needs to turn freely. The bottom of the G hold down finger could benefit from a veneer of leather or cork. As is it will be noisy.

This could be straighter.

Once straight I would place a bit of cork under the arm. Not on the body. This I would experiment with different thickness.
It will back the octave fork off the neck maybe enough ?
This should increase the pressure on pad as the fulcrum points I think favorably.
At the same time the touch lowers to being more level with thumb rest.
Make sure the top of body octave vent is nice and smooth. No impression into pad as it looks as though it has some sliding action to the movement.
Shrink tubing on the guide fork could be ok. Just a partial band at travel distance area, both sides.

Neck on.
The octave lever has clearance to halo.
Press the octave touch, the crook octave key should open 2-3mm.
Press G, the neck octave key spring should power the neck key closed.
The body octave pad should be open 2-3mm and no tension at lever to halo.
The finger from G to body octave roller sets the G key height.

 

[pgboyd]

I’m slowly working through the punch list from last week’s suggestions. The octave mechanism is working better and some upper body leaks were addressed by removing the pads and adding more shellac.

I’m working through the bottom stack and re-doing some of the spring work to correct mistakes I made. Are these springs too long? They seem to be but thought I would share some pictures. I also need to get the cork adjustment material sorted.

 

[PigSquealer]

Are these springs too long?

Good progress report 👍

Ideally you want the tapered area of the needle point centered to cradle/ cleat/ pin. Slightly favoring the point is better than to full diameter. Reduced friction contact area. Clearance to adjacent parts for assembly just review. You don’t want a stack assembled on to find out the spring is on the wrong side of a keyfoot.
You have one, possibly two pillars coming loose.

 

[pgboyd]

You have one, possibly two pillars coming loose.

Ugh. I'm sure there are more if we look close enough. I will say that I attempted to do some old solder clean up around some of the guards that were previously removed only to give up in disgust. The solder that was used was definitely not a soft solder. The torch I use for padding wouldn't touch it. I've had previous experience in trying to solder only to pop off multiple other pieces so I was hesitant to try a Smith-style torch. I do have some Stay-Brite solder (silver colored, but not silver solder, so wouldn't require ultra high heat) but not sure I want to bother unless I absolutely have to.

I'll make the changes to the springs and see how the posts hold up.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ugh. I'm sure there are more if we look close enough. I will say that I attempted to do some old solder clean up around some of the guards that were previously removed only to give up in disgust. The solder that was used was definitely not a soft solder. The torch I use for padding wouldn't touch it. I've had previous experience in trying to solder only to pop off multiple other pieces so I was hesitant to try a Smith-style torch. I do have some Stay-Brite solder (silver colored, but not silver solder, so wouldn't require ultra high heat) but not sure I want to bother unless I absolutely have to.

I'll make the changes to the springs and see how the posts hold up.

Bummer 😕
No telling what a past tech used. Sometimes it’s best to remove the part and start over. Clean up the body side then clean and tin the part. Apply some paste flux to part side and secure in place with wire. Heat the contact points with a stab of heat, on for a 1-2-3, off for 1-2-3 count. By the fourth to sixth count it should flow. Solder flows to the heat. Pay attention to the area heat is applied. Sometimes both/ multiple angles are necessary. Overheating is the most common reason for failure. Lack of being clean or lack of flux next. Know your heat source.
Wrap adjacent areas with a wet paper towel or use a heat sink material.

Best Heat Sink Putty Options for Welding and Soldering Projects – 101 Generator

For the needs below. The Smiths may work with a real gentle touch. #1 tip, oxy@ 5-6psi, Acy@2-3psi. Soft flame.
Like 1-2 on 1-2 off. Circular to base & body. (FWIW current MAPP gas in Calif. Is actually butane, CARB law BS)
Remove the stack, reinstall the rod. Copper wire around rod, over post and around rod other side. Just make it secure.
Sneek some flux into crevice. Add your heat sink choice. Go for it ! There’s a chance the joint is still clean enough. No need to add metal. There’s still the original metal (solder) amount in place. Additional flux may be needed. Liquid whiteout can be used as anti- flux.

There’s no shame in asking a local tech for help on challenging tasks 😉

 

[pgboyd]

I’ll give it a go. I bought this horn specifically to learn and it has not disappointed.

 

[JayeNM]

I don't get very hung up on spring lengths, as long as they aren't hitting anything on their pointy end and don't look ridiculously long compared to the cradle location. Pic 1 is acceptable, Pic 2 is acceptable, 3 and 4 push it a bit, I would probably shorten those a little bit

 

[pgboyd]

The “post” that looks like it is coming loose is actually the support from bell to body. It was poorly done in the past but it isn’t loose so I’m going to ignore it. Springs have been addressed. Next I will reinstall and check keys to get the adjustment materials sorted.