Playing the saxophone Are you or were you self taught?

I couldn't claim to be self taught since I have used so many online resources in my journey. It would have been nice to at least have someone to learn with in person even if they were just at my level.
OK, I think this is where we get into divergent definitiions.

I would ask "were any of those online resources skype or live video type lessons ? Where someone on the screen held a horn and could hear you play and you had back-forth interaction ?" If you did those, I dunno, say a half dozen or more within a reasonable regularity, then I'd say you can say "I am not just self-taught".

But if such materials were "book lessons", one-way audio of vid lessons (prerecorded , not live), printed lessons, etc...then what you did was seek out learning materials and utilize them, which would be, IMHO, self-teaching...
 
"Rock & Roll" is straight, not shuffle or swing.
OMG ...let us avoid over-generalization , please

Crazy Little Thing Called Love
Rock Around the Clock
Moondance
Murder, by Numbers
My Guy
A lotta Stray Cats
Dead End Street
Runaround Sue
Chain Lightning (Steely...)
The Fever (Southside Johnny)
Chicago
Daydream
Detroit Rock City
Horse With No Name
Let's Go Crazy (it can be argued)...
Sunny Afternoon
Spirit in the Night....


.....great thread topic, "Rock that Swings and Shuffles"

(unless your reply was Bait and I took it Hook, Line, Sinker....)


😳😉
 
Teaching is a state of mind, and a learnable skill set. I spent 15 years before retirement teaching in what we call a Professional Center. This is where the theory supporting many crafts is taught. Electricians, auto mechanics, carpenters, instruments repairers, etc…
I attended a certifying teaching program, a legal condition to be allowed to teach there.
For fun, I gave a couple of lessons in fields unfamiliar for me. A way to prove that with the right teaching preparation and process, you can teach pretty unfamiliar material.
Being a great musician and being a great music teacher have … music in common, but can well be quite different attitudes.
 
It is in a way like athletics. On the surface one might think a superstar athlete would automatically be a good teacher or trainer or coach. But not the case at all, really....

This has borne itself out even at college and pro levels. I can think of a number of examples of coaches who were, in their playing careers...adequate and respectable but unremarkable, who ended up being fantastic coaches.
Then the opposite...much ballyhooed superstars given a coaching position and having had that be a dismal failure....repeatedly.

Likewise I have found in the various places I have lived, the most reputable performers on various instruments did not end up being good teachers. People sought out others for tutelage....
 
I mean, hey, Pete, if you're gonna prompt us to talk about ourselves and our background, who can resist that?! 😁 Sure, I'll play! (And it's cool to read the broad diversity of background and experience here, good group of folks.)

My TL;DR: While I've had plenty of musical tutoring from a wide variety of people, starting with my parents, I still consider myself mainly self-taught. More on that below, I suppose.

I grew up in a very musical household. Childhood camping trips usually involved my dad singing Beatles and Eagles songs while playing his 1968 Martin 018 guitar (which is mine now!). My mom was a wonderful vocalist and a decent pianist, and I started learning how to play the things I heard her do by ear from a very young age. She thought I was going to be a genius, so she made the very well-intended error of making me take piano lessons with her church organist from age four... an old-school lady who insisted "playing by ear" was bad and that only the Alfred books would set me free. I lasted less than a year, I hated it, didn't touch the piano for a while, and my poor mom regretted making me do that for the rest of her life (she was basically the best possible mother who had simply made a well-intended parental error).

But before long I was drawn back to the piano, and this time my poor mom didn't stop me from playing by ear. Then came the dreaded recorder in elementary school... and I loved it, so much that I decided to take up clarinet (because it looked similar) in sixth grade. Clarinet went very well and I played it seriously all through middle and high school, but in ninth grade I wanted to play bass in rock bands as well as figure out how to play my dad's guitar, and I still loved the keyboard. Then, around age fifteen or sixteen, I heard Coltrane, John McLaughlin, Weather Report, Miles Davis, etc, and it was over... I had to learn how all that music worked, and I wanted to play every instrument in the band. By then, if I wasn't in school or hanging with friends (usually either listening to records or playing in our garage band), I was in my room learning every part to every record I could on any instrument I could get my hands on.

Classical clarinet was my ticket to college, but my plan from the beginning was to switch to jazz as soon as I could. I had only been playing the saxophone for around a year and sounded terrible, but my technique and my ears were good, so I did well in the program as soon as I could get a good sound (which took some time). Meanwhile, I was practicing and playing more piano than ever, and my first steady gigs were as a pianist. My whole career, ever since, has been a balance of saxophone/woodwind work and piano/keyboard work, as well as writing and arranging.

While I had some good teachers – wonderful clarinet teacher in middle/high school, some very good instructors in college – the two things that I credit for my fortunate life and career are the environment I was lucky enough to grow up in and the stubborn streak that led me to independently study and pursue things my teachers may not have even known about. Learning from the records, like all my heroes did, is why I can do what I do. Inevitable periodic financial struggles aside (a natural part of a career in the arts), I'm very grateful for the work I'm able to do, and education helped... but self-teaching is what actually made it a possibility. I think that's probably true for anyone working as a musician full-time.
 
The above posts I agree with mostly... especially if communication skills make the difference between the student (athlete, craftsman, technician, etc.) gaining the ability to perform their professional task well.

The arts still require good communication from a teacher, however the level of teaching a student pursues, regardless of the ability/quality of the teacher, can become a detriment. The arts require creativity if you are going to become recognized, or at this juncture (considering AI) even a professional. The student/beginner needs to get the basics of their "craft", understand the tools they use and develop proficiency. Beyond that it's probably best if they then stop and start developing themselves as artistic individuals.

The current employment "system" demands advanced degrees for good paying jobs, however nobody cares how educated a musician or artist is. They are judged by what they do. Artists and musicians (who we could presume started off with some talent), seem to loose their individuality/creativity when/if they stay in the education system too long. I've challenged members here previously (and on other sites) to name a very well known/famous composer, artist or musician who became famous after gaining a PhD in the arts.

Education in the arts is very different. It's not universally a requirement. It's potentially a great start that can give the student skills, but carried to far can also blinker or destroy innate creativity.

Arts education should always be pursued with the intention of stopping at the juncture of going beyond competence and jumping through hoops in order to satisfy an academic goal. Nobody cares what degree you have unless your applying to teach at a university.
 
Thing there is, is that good teaching ?

Any player can show a non player a few things, I mean probably two or three lessons worth of material.

But being a decent Teacher..is a Gift, honestly.

It has as much to do with a person's ability to communicate, ability to read the kind of "learner" the student may be, and ability to come up with a logical, linear lesson plan which is consumable for the pupil.

Then the ability to recognize a student's strengths and weaknesses and adjust the material and pace of your teaching accordingly.

None of those qualities are ones which are necessarily possessed by a respectable or even Great "player". Those "skill sets", to use a term which I abhor, do not necessarily overlap. In some they may, in some they may not...just a thought.
I’m telling you that most of the people here who have been playing for many years but have never tried teaching would be surprised to find out how much they have to offer and that they’re actually good at it. As in the book excerpt I shared, many musicians tend to underestimate how much they actually know and teaching makes you take stock of it. When you say 2 or 3 lessons- that’s the illusion. Somebody could come back to you for a year and you wouldn’t be done with what you thought would take 2 or 3 lessons.

As for the other stuff, if you haven’t taught music, you’ve possibly taught something else— a kid how to ride a bike or use a toothbrush or hammer a nail. A coworker at the office how to use some software. It’s not that different, a relationship built on empathy to help someone understand something that you already know. Yes, it’s a “skill set” but it’s a skill set which many people routinely draw upon without recognizing it as “teaching” per se. If you like people, if you like communicating with people, a lot of that mode of interacting just falls into place.

As for “is that good teaching?” I wasn’t quite sure who you were referring to. Obviously the guy writing that book is a good or “gifted” enough teacher being he’s in that very small percentage of teachers that Sher Music would hit up to author an instructional book on music!
 
Mhhh, I think, therefore I am... sort of the worst of the two or three worlds
My dad was self taught on piano. Never had any lessons but severely crippled by polio at the age of 5, the family "pianola" was all he had, aside from an impeccable ear. He heard a song on the radio, once, sat down at the piano and played with all the key changes etc. Years of "on the job training" will do that to you and his on the job training was playing piano in the silent movie theaters. That gives you an idea of the time we are talking about.

Of course his dream was to provide his children with the best musical education. My sister (two years older) gave her first piano concert at the age of 5, when I just learned to walk upright. My parents let me mature a little bit longer and got me into piano lessons around 5-ish, so kind or 4 years behind my sister in terms of instructions. There were two things that doomed me, one was we had the same piano teacher who ended each session with the remark: "if you were only as talented as your sister ... " and the other was that I used to be (still am, sort of) totally dyslexic to the point where I had to ask my sister to read me some books paragraph by paragraph and I would try to make sense of the mumbo jumbo of characters, paragraph by paragraph,

But sheet music to this day is a glorified Rohrschach test to me.

Bottom line, my first musical education ended sort of catastrophic. Going back to @Dr G and his first guitar. My dad became a very successful attorney and one of his clients was the owner of a string instrument "factory". The client was insolvent and offered a cello in lieu of cash. Putting on my best Nicholas Cage impression, I swear it was probably the worst cello ever produced but I was the victim of the circumstances and, thence, forced to take cello lessons. I loved my cello teacher, a student of Paul Hindemith and I even named my cat Benedikt after him but give a student the instrument from hell and watch him fail. Luckily, a bad skiing accident leaving me in a stretcher for a few months ended my second not-self-taught musical endeavor.

There is one thing that I am going to throw in here because everybody now takes YouTube and books for granted. There weren't any of those materials available at the time. If you were lucky you could get the sheet music for your instrument but could you listen to most of the pieces being performed? Hell no! That just did not exist.

Willem DeFesch: Cello concert in Eb, it's not even now on YouTube or Deutsche Grammophon.
I found Francesco Tenaglia's Aria, beautiful piece of baroque music, like 50 years after I abandoned my cello, which, one night, mysteriously, simply exploded, I mean just developed a crack and split in two pieces and I had nothing to do with it, I had a love-hate relationship with it but I would never harm it.

Next step: kind of overlapping with the cello, a class mate sold his acoustic guitar for 10 Deutschmark (about $2.-) and I snatched it. I had a little experience with guitars even if I did not own one from a summer boarding school where somebody played a guitar and showed me to play blowing in the wind.

I played that guitar until my fingers bled - a $2 guitar will do that to you pretty fast. And then, another day at school I broke the ring finger of my left hand playing basket ball. But somebody told me about Django Reinhardt and what he could do with two fingers only. I started finger- picking and once the cast came off my left hand... Self taught all the way. I mean, literally, stuck in a room with nothing to go on with other than an old guitar. In retrospect, it feels a bit like the experience of Dr. B in the Chess Novella, a.k.a. The Royal Game.

I ended up a decent session rhythm guitar player and a few solo gigs including a lot of originals. And then I got married....

The end.

p.s. After a 30 year hiatus, 5 days before my divorce was finalized I saw an ad for a used sax on Craigslist. I was ripped off by the seller but eventually I made it work, never had any lessons other than another sax player at an acid jazz jam telling me "monkey see, monkey do", that is, standing in front of me and asking me to imitate his fingering.

But now there is YouTube, BetterSax, Dave Pollack, Nigel, Adrienne Spencer, Scott Paddock and who knows.

Self-taught has a very different meaning now compared to 50 or 60 years ago. I am thinking about taking lessons now, though
 
OMG ...let us avoid over-generalization , please

Crazy Little Thing Called Love
Rock Around the Clock
Moondance
Murder, by Numbers
My Guy
A lotta Stray Cats
Dead End Street
Runaround Sue
Chain Lightning (Steely...)
The Fever (Southside Johnny)
Chicago
Daydream
Detroit Rock City
Horse With No Name
Let's Go Crazy (it can be argued)...
Sunny Afternoon
Spirit in the Night....


.....great thread topic, "Rock that Swings and Shuffles"

(unless your reply was Bait and I took it Hook, Line, Sinker....)


😳😉
IMO "Rock" is one thing "Rock & Roll" is another thing. Before Rock & Roll was invented we had short time with Rockabilly. Lots of Rock was more or less R&B.

"On "Tutti Frutti" you hear me playing a shuffle. Listen to it now, it's easy to hear I should have been playing that rock beat" said Earl Palmer - "Mr Back Beat" - one of the guys who played on Little Richards early recordings.

Daniel Glass explain the difference between shuffle and straight eights.
View: https://youtu.be/64u4ETmKNNA?si=tpN5_m6KYVMS04AN
 
I didn't like school, teachers, lessons ....... I had difficulties to do things on command. When I did it my way, it was better for me. To learn something is very much to solve a problem. A teacher, when I was young, was not solving a problem. The young boys and girls or elder women and men should be trained to use thier cognitive ability (perceiving, reasoning, thinking and understanding).

Self-taught or self-learned is more than teacher led lessons from a formula.

For 20-25 years ago nobody thought that a person over 15 could get new brain cells. Today we know that elderly also get new brain cells. Elderly persons have better connection between thougts and emotions and are more careful with goals and meaning.

I think it's easier for an elder person to learn the slow and great "Please Send Me Someone To Love" (Percy Mayfield) with playing the words

"Heaven please send to all mankind
Understanding and peace of mind
But if it's not asking too much
Please send me someone to love"


instead of reading/playing the dots from sheet music.

That can bring us to a new topic; Sing the Sax or Play the lyrics/words?
 
I didn't like school, teachers, lessons ....... I had difficulties to do things on command. When I did it my way, it was better for me. To learn something is very much to solve a problem. A teacher when, I was young, was not solving a problem. The young boys and girls or elder women and men should be trained to use thier cognitive ability (perceiving, reasoning, thinking and understanding).

Self-taught or self-learned is more than teacher led lessons from a formula.

For 20-25 years ago nobody thought that a person over 15 could get new brain cells. Today we know that elderly also get new brain cells. Elderly persons have better connection between thougts and emotions and are more careful with goals and meaning.

I think it's easier for an elder person to learn the slow and great "Please Send Me Someone To Love" (Percy Mayfield) with playing the words

"Heaven please send to all mankind
Understanding and peace of mind
But if it's not asking too much
Please send me someone to love"


instead of reading/playing the dots from sheet music.

That can bring us to a new topic; Sing the Sax or Play the lyrics/words?
I also didn't get on with the whole 'education system' to say the least ! and a huge and very negative waste of my time in the main.
I always think of the words when playing a song too, even when using the dots as a reference, aide memoire, whatever.
 
I also didn't get on with the whole 'education system' to say the least ! and a huge and very negative waste of my time in the main.
I always think of the words when playing a song too, even when using the dots as a reference, aide memoire, whatever.
That is how I learned timing and phrasing; by playing songs and tunes I knew well I could apply what I knew it sounded like to the dots and get the hang of the way they should be played.
As for the ‘education system’ I only narrowly avoided expulsion not for bad behaviour but simply not conforming to their ideas.
 
I also didn't get on with the whole 'education system' to say the least
I was the same, couldn't wait to leave school, would never have learned saxophone at school, if i had done i would have come home wearing it.
Everything i have achieved was after school, although i can agree it does give you some structure for learning.
 
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Back in the 50's and early 60's boys and girls went to school to learn to read, write and count. and, of course, to behave (to be a part of a group in a good way). Teaching and to be a teacher was the thing.

To was brought up on the countryside and I didn't want to become a pilot, doctor .... . We didn't think of what to be. It was very much just to "become like people".
 
Started trying to play 3 years ago.
No teachers inside a long haul flight & internet not good or reliable to stream.
So anything I use to help from the internet is downloaded. No Skype, Zoom or any real time options available.
I’ve had a few questions answered here & on Facebook groups.
My wife & neighbours enjoyed listening to my playing, so I’m getting some positive feedback.

Does this count as self taught? 😁
 
Does this count as self taught? 😁
Yes. If we are going to have rocksax meetings again I hope I can get a player from Boston USA to be with us during the seance. I have 4 or 5 G mobile internet. The USA player can't play at the same as us but it's more to listen and give some feedback and to be with us. I live in Sweden. Internet open up to have more people to play the sax. I use an laptop and a Zoom 2Q as webcamera. PA and microphone in the house as well.
 
I’m telling you that most of the people here who have been playing for many years but have never tried teaching would be surprised to find out how much they have to offer and that they’re actually good at it. As in the book excerpt I shared, many musicians tend to underestimate how much they actually know and teaching makes you take stock of it. When you say 2 or 3 lessons- that’s the illusion. Somebody could come back to you for a year and you wouldn’t be done with what you thought would take 2 or 3 lessons.
But what you are saying is hypothetical, and AGAIN your overriding litmus test seems to be "experienced player". Having gigged for 40 years now in various genres, I submit, again that is a questionable litmus test.

How do I conclude that ? After witnessing it around 100 times, and listening to stories from othef players and student twofold that.

Teaching requires the attributes and sensitivities I previously noted. Regardless of playing experience, some humans simply do not possess those attributes. Some of those can be acquired or learned or trained into you, but many cannot.

We are talking about successful teaching, here...what it takes to do it well.
 
IMO "Rock" is one thing "Rock & Roll" is another thing. Before Rock & Roll was invented we had short time with Rockabilly. Lots of Rock was more or less R&B.
Respectfully not gonna let someone get away with that... ...trying to split hairs between Rock and Rock and Roll. I mean,
I get that there's some separation between Chuck Berry and Queen, but one is going down a very slippery slope to try to pigeonhole Rock and Rock n' Roll as separate genres with their own signature attributes.
Swing feel/swing beats are part and present in "both"....

Return to Sender
That'll Be the Day
School Day (Ring, Ring)
Chantilly Lace....
Blue Suede Shoes
The Wanderer

...i can keep going...bit difficult to claim the above aren't Rock n' Roll tunes....

You stated Rock n' Roll doesn't swing, but by my estimation a lotta R&R did use swing beats, whether ride swing or shuffle swing...same feel....
 
Not gonna let you get away with that, sorry...trying to split hairs between Rock and Rock and Roll.
Reminds my of a series of lectures during my degree, where the statement ‘rock is dead’ was proclaimed. At the same time, Blink 182, U2, Limp Bizkit had all recently topped singles or album charts…. But none were deigned to be ‘rock’.
 

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