Why Scales?

[lightbobarms]

I am not only a complete beginner at saxophones, but music too. So, I have some completely basic questions. Hope this isn't seen as too simplistic but:

1 ) why are there scales? And key signatures?
2 ) why are 'tenor saxophones pitched in Bflat, so the C is a Bflat on the piano'. What does that actually mean apart from the music having to be transposed. Why not just write everything to the same basis?

Perhaps whay I need is a link to a good music theory web site; the local library and bookshops don't have anything which explains in the music sections, which seem to be almost exclusively filled with biographies of celebrities rather than anything on music as such.

 

[Pete Thomas]

At 7:28:52 PM 13/03/06, lightbobarms wrote:
I am not only a complete beginner at saxophones, but music too. So, I have some completely basic questions. Hope this isn't seen as too simplistic but:

1 ) why are there scales? And key signatures?
2 ) why are 'tenor saxophones pitched in Bflat, so the C is a Bflat on the piano'. What does that actually mean apart from the music having to be transposed. Why not just write everything to the same basis?

Perhaps whay I need is a link to a good music theory web site; the local library and bookshops don't have anything which explains in the music sections, which seem to be almost exclusively filled with biographies of celebrities rather than anything on music as such.

We don't mind beginners, in fact you're more than welcome. Anyone else want to jump in with explanations or links.

My site is currently just a bit beyond those questions. I do mean to do some more elemenrtary stuff so I'm glad you raised it.

Re: transposition, there is currently a good discussion about why the tenor is Bb on alt.music.saxophone newsgroup - check that out.

 

[lee_]

There are a multitude of resources on the internet regarding music theory and learning. But it would be very hard to provide an effective rudimentary explanation for you without knowing more about you and your perspective, age, music interests, experiences, etc.

That's why it's almost imperative when starting out that a prospective musician of any age hook up with at least one teacher who can work with them face to face and "feed" them the necessary information in small increments. Just like algebra, the small steps build on each other to construct more complex concepts. Too much data is overwhelming and, therefore, useless. It's a learning process that must be taken step by step.

Many school band directors will discuss these issues with students and non-students after school. Practically any piano teacher could go over the basic concepts with you, too (in fact, basic knowledge of the piano keyboard is one of the most valuable things a musician can acquire, in my opinion).

That said, here's a link for a Wikipedia entry on "Music Theory" that is fairly complete. At the end of it are some more links that you can use to pursue it as far as you want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory


Now, as to your specific questions:

1) The scales, as I understand them, simply denote the right selections from the 12 possible pitches (in Western music) in their relative order to match that key. The key signature is simply indicating what sharps or flats will be required to play in a given key.

2) Someone, Adolph Saxe, I guess, decided to have saxes that mimic the human voice, ie soprano (high), alto (lower), tenor (lower still) and baritone (even lower). In order to make the sax voices lower and lower, the horns had to be made bigger and bigger. The fact that the horns are voiced differently along the scale simply means they are starting from different points.

Why not just write everything to the same basis? So we don't always sound like a kazoo band playing in unison.


In general, what you will discover, if you pursue basic music theory for awhile, is that the scales, keys, similarities and differences form the means to add color and imagination into the music. I guess the first cavemen probably just sang a single note, but we've come a long way from there.

 

[philippe]

1 ) why are there scales? And key signatures?

A short question, but the answer could be very long indeed.
One part of the answer is that pieces of music can be written in different keys, for example C major or Bb minor. Within each key, certain notes tend to be used more than others and this is reflected in the key signature. For example F Major has one flat: Bb, because B natural will not be played much in that key but Bb will. why that is the case is a long story. Anyway, to each key signature also corresponds a set of scales from which most of the tune or chords of the piece will be taken from.
When you get to understand all this a bit more you'll see that scales, key signatures, chords and harmony are all connected, and in fact are different views of the same thing.

2 ) why are 'tenor saxophones pitched in Bflat, so the C is a Bflat on the piano'. What does that actually mean apart from the music having to be transposed. Why not just write everything to the same basis?

Again not a short answer. Partly the reason is historical, i.e. if we had to design the system from scratch it might well be that we'd come up with a different system. The other is that saxophones (bass, baritone, tenor, alto, soprano, sopranino) are pitched in either Bb or Eb, and that if you have to switch from one to the other as most professionals have to, it's easier to keep the 'C' in the same place. It also means you don't have to write the lower saxes in bass clef which would add even more to the confusion. So once you've learnt to read music with one saxophone you can play them all without having to re-learn the whole thing.

Why they're pitched in Eb or Bb is probably down to acoustics... they just sound better in those lengths. Also clarinets are also pitched in Bb/Eb so it would make switching from one to the other easier.

 

[lightbobarms]

So if I have understood correctly, its mostly pragmatic; certain collections of notes 'work' well together. There are 'rules' or at least conventions about how to assemble a collection.

And then some instruments have a range centered differently to others. But the convention that saxophone music is written the same for tenor, alto etc is just pragatic convenience for th musicians. So when different saxpohones are played together, they would probably be using a different key signature. Or have I misunderstood that bit?

 

[philippe]

So if I have understood correctly, its mostly pragmatic; certain collections of notes 'work' well together. There are 'rules' or at least conventions about how to assemble a collection.

That's right, it's definitively pragmatic: it's there as a shortcut. The pitches (notes) used in most songs tend to be drawn from a limited subset, and you can make writing music a lot clearer by using key signatures that say 'OK, from now on we're in F Major so play Bb instead of B natural unless it says different'.

And then some instruments have a range centered differently to others. But the convention that saxophone music is written the same for tenor, alto etc is just pragatic convenience for th musicians. So when different saxpohones are played together, they would probably be using a different key signature. Or have I misunderstood that bit?

If Eb and Bb saxophones are played together in a piece, they use different key signatures in the written music they use, yes. They're a fifth apart. If the piece is in C Major, the Bb saxophones will be reading from a D Major score and Eb saxophones from an A Major score. The sounds they produce of course are all in C Major.
Philippe

 

[lightbobarms]

Thanks for that.

I'll try to find a book on the subject to get it fully straight.

 

[bernie_br]

At 9:57:42 PM 15/03/06, lightbobarms wrote:
Thanks for that.

I'll try to find a book on the subject to get it fully straight.

I don't think you will ever get it completely straight Bob, in my opinion anyway the whole business isn't entirely logical. But it works ok in practice. At one level, scales are just whatever the player and the audience are used to, you know, arabic scales and asian scales are different to ours, it is like a shared language, or dialect, but you already (I assume) know the dialect of the music you are learning to play, I guess you already understand scales, in the way that a listener understands. So, I guess you would realise there was something wrong if you heard arabic scales being used in a jazz ballad, even though you might not be able to say what was wrong.

er, that is supposed to be encouraging, ok?

Bernie

 

[lightbobarms]

OK, consider me encouraged!

I found a whole heap of stuff (which I didn't follow very well at all) on a variety of websites as well. As I am only on the early bits of Pete's video so far, I don't think there is any great urgency in getting this sorted; trying to kep my fingers in contact with my brain while blowing is more immediate.

Thnanks to everyone who has responded

 

[lightbobarms]

Whoops, I mean thanks of course

 

[SteveS]

Re: transposition, there is currently a good discussion about why the tenor is Bb on alt.music.saxophone newsgroup - check that out.

Hi Pete... trying to find that discussion thread, but no success so far.

I've never thought of why tenors are in Bb and altos are in Eb. Why not C and F? Hmmmmm... Don't know! The C-melody sax did exist early in the 20th century, as did the F mezzosoprano, but they both went the way of the Dodo Bird and the Nehru jacket.

So what do you remember of this newsgroup thread?

 

[Pete Thomas]

At 7:08:59 PM 18/03/06, SteveS wrote:
> Re: transposition, there is currently a good discussion about why the tenor is Bb on alt.music.saxophone newsgroup - check that out.


Hi Pete... trying to find that discussion thread, but no success so far.

I've never thought of why tenors are in Bb and altos are in Eb. Why not C and F? Hmmmmm... Don't know! The C-melody sax did exist early in the 20th century, as did the F mezzosoprano, but they both went the way of the Dodo Bird and the Nehru jacket.

So what do you remember of this newsgroup thread?

It's here:

http://tinyurl.com/g5afa

 

[philippe]

I've never thought of why tenors are in Bb and altos are in Eb. Why not C and F? Hmmmmm... Don't know! The C-melody sax did exist early in the 20th century, as did the F mezzosoprano, but they both went the way of the Dodo Bird and the Nehru jacket.

When Adolphe invented his saxophone, there was a lot of controversy (Partly I believe because he was a newly arrived Belgian in Paris - I seem to remember there was even an assasination attempt!). Anyway The saxophone was partly intended as a replacement for other brass instruments or clarinets (the bass clarinet in particular) which were already in Bb/Eb, and it was much easier to develop a following and a repertoire if there was already a lot of music out there that could be read straight off without transposing.

Partly it's also acoustics: there's a balance you have to get right between the thickness of the material, the length of the tube and the size of the tone-holes, which is why flutes, clarinets and brass instruments tend to come in certain lengths only.

just checked that thread mentionned above, some interesting comments there...

 

[Mikey]

At 7:28:52 PM 13/03/06, lightbobarms wrote:
I am not only a complete beginner at saxophones, but music too. So, I have some completely basic questions. Hope this isn't seen as too simplistic but:

1 ) why are there scales? And key signatures?
2 ) why are 'tenor saxophones pitched in Bflat, so the C is a Bflat on the piano'. What does that actually mean apart from the music having to be transposed. Why not just write everything to the same basis?

Perhaps whay I need is a link to a good music theory web site; the local library and bookshops don't have anything which explains in the music sections, which seem to be almost exclusively filled with biographies of celebrities rather than anything on music as such.

Don't worry. I'm pretty much in the same boat you are. I'm actually worse because I have been playing so long, but the director at my school does not teach theory, we just get more music to play... I really dislike it. So I joined this to learn more. I now can do some altissimo stuff and I circular breathe well now. But when it comes to theory, I can't grasp too much of the concept. So don't feel left out.