Transposing diminished plus other rare chords

[RiceBag]

Dear friends,

I don't play much of diminished chords, at least on purpose, for the music type I play does not much use them, although, of course they can be used, and some players do jazz-up the latin type music, of course, and I want to experiment substitutions, and so forth.

Anyhow, my question is:

1. Do all diminished chords and in particular those that do have extensions like 7h, 6th, and other accidentals, with + or '-', or '0', transpose the same as do regular chords?

I mean like if up one semi-tone, then ALL chords go up one semi-tone.

2. One reason for my question is sometimes doing this does not seem to give me good sounding, but it is probably my lacks, or maybe I need to invert the chord when I transpose, or maybe I am missing something.

3. Also, I have some old charts for transposing songs, using numbers, and in those charts, the math for those type of chords, on counting semitones up or down, does not match the arithmetic, as it does do in regular chords, but maybe those charts have mistakes; and that's why I am asking for some help on this.

This is in reference to keyboard or guitar playing.

Thanks!

 

[Pete Thomas]

RiceBag wrote:
I mean like if up one semi-tone, then ALL chords go up one semi-tone.

Yes, all chords of a tune should transpose by the same amount.

Sometimes the voicings played by piano or guitar may need to be inverted though for the chords to sound in the best range of the instrument. (As long as there is a bass player to play the bass note)

So whatever note is the bass note of the chord (ie played by the bass player) should stay as the bass note (but transposed of course).

 

[RiceBag]

Thank you very much Pete.

It's good foundation to pursue learning with a clarification that confirms that the arithmetic should match, and on that basis fix myself, or perhaps print error somewhere, which do happen and can drive one nuts.

One more question, if I may:

1. In particular, to me, diminished chords, and those with more accidentals, seem to be much more tolerant, as far as if one puts one in the wrong place, or so, it still can pass. So, of course, without making it a rule, does that happen in pro playing, meaning, one can put one of those chords and still be OK, in particular when the piece of music is not to familiar to such player? Is that not too uncommon, or, to those with better Jazz ear than me, can really tell that someone stroke a wrong diminished chord?

I do realize that there are probably no complete answers to most things, but just a little brief glimpse of what pro playing has to say on something like this.

Thanks!

 

[sam_moreton]

A good thing to remember with diminished 7 chords is that you only really need three of them to cover all 12 keys. (very handy for guitarists)

A diminished 7 chord has all its intervals a minor 3rd apart. So each one has 4 diminished 7 chords inside itself depending on what you call the root.

Also to start using diminished chords more, try using them as passing chords. to move chromatically.

FMaj7 / / / | G7 / / /

becomes

Fmaj7 / GbDim7 / | G7 / / /

Hope that makes sense 🙂

 

[colin_]

Sam's right. To put it another way a C dim7 shares all the same notes as Eb dim7, Gb dim7 and A dim7. So the only other shapes you need to know are C# dim7 and D dim7 and their relationships.

You can also say that Augmented (or +) chords are interchangable in a similar way. There are four note groupings to learn in this case. C+ shares the same notes with E+ and Ab+ etc.

I'm not entirely sure how these are voiced on guitar though and whether that could present problems? But certainly for piano, provided you play the correct bass note you can get away with any voicing containing the right notes. 😉

 

[Simon]

Yeah, although 'diminished chords' may be rarely written on a leadsheet, they're handy to know because of their 'join' type function between chords, eg C Major ->C#Dim -> Dm7 etc.

Another point though -

If you play 7b9 chords, a diminished chord is this starting on the 3rd:
eg C7b9 = C E G Bb Db is E diminished (E G Bb Db) with a C root, right?

Simon

 

[colin_]

That's right Simon and being foremost a pianist, that's how I always think of b9 chords - it's easier to remember shapes or patterns on the keyboard than trying to think of all those notes at once. 8| It's perhaps the first step towards chord superimposition which makes using chord extensions so much easier on the brain.

 

[RiceBag]

Hi Sam,

And thank you so much for your generous reply (and those of Pete, Colin, and Simon, as well).

Yes, what you say makes great sense, opens one's eyes, and addresses very well with what I have stumbled upon for years, and asked about just till now.

But I don't mean that I totally see every thing there is to see, of course, but it's more of continuing effort with a much improved view.

It does make sense that there should be, and surely there are, corresponding chords for every key. But the vastness of the task of even over-viewing them, on a brute-force basis, has boggled my mind for a long time, and, sad to say, kept me at distance from them.

Fortunately, music playing has magic, like this that you all are revealing, that keeps me charmed.

I will explore this right away: "with diminished 7 chords you only really need three of them to cover all 12 keys. (very handy for guitarists)".

This tip will likely explain what I thought was an inconsistency in my old guitar charts (where I said, earlier, that the math for different keys did not seem to match-up or down), and I just couldn't figure out on my own for years.

Although the answer is probably to be stumbled upon, or deciphered, what are the 3 chords, though?

I will certainly study and practice, in various keys, the relationship, : "FMaj7 / / / | G7 / / / becomes Fmaj7 / GbDim7 / | G7 / / /"
Hi Sam,

And thank you so much for your generous reply (and those of Pete, Colin and Simon, as well).

Yes, what you say makes great sense, opens one's eyes, and addresses very well with what I have stumbled upon for years, and asked about just till now.

But I don't mean that I totally see every thing there is to see, of course, but it's more of continuing effort with a much improved view.

It does make sense that there should be, and surely there are, corresponding chords for every key. But the vastness of the task of even overviewing them on a brute-force basis has boggled my mind for a long time, and, sad to say, kept me at distance from them.

Fortunately, music playing has its magic, like this that you all are revealing, that keeps me charmed.

I will explore this right away: "with diminished 7 chords you only really need three of them to cover all 12 keys. (very handy for guitarists)".

This tip will likely explain what I thought was an inconsistency in my old guitar charts (where I said, above, that the math for different keys did not seem to match-up or down), and I just couldn't figure out on my own for years.

Although the answer is probably to be stumbled upon, or deciphered, what are the 3 chords, though?

I will certainly study and practice, in various keys, the relationship, : "FMaj7 / / / | G7 / / / becomes Fmaj7 / GbDim7 / | G7 / / /"

Thanks again, everyone; I feel lifted-up. 🙂

 

[RiceBag]

"Sam's right. To put it another way a C dim7 shares all the same notes as Eb dim7, Gb dim7 and A dim7. So the only other shapes you need to know are C# dim7 and D dim7 and their relationships.

You can also say that Augmented (or +) chords are interchangable in a similar way. There are four note groupings to learn in this case. C+ shares the same notes with E+ and Ab+ etc.

I'm not entirely sure how these are voiced on guitar though and whether that could present problems? But certainly for piano, provided you play the correct bass note you can get away with any voicing containing the right notes."
.....................

Hi Colin,

And thank you so much for this help. It's refined-gold to me.

I think now that it applies to my above question of "which are the 3 chords to know", plus more.

My situation is that I have owned (but not necessarily played) acoustic guitar for most of my life, and later some keyboards.

With the guitar, I played often not knowing what I was doing (and shame to say often not caring). And I do have an old chord dictionary by Cherti which have recently been re-discovering.

But the fingering he gives for most of the "rare" chords is daunting to execute, for me, and impossible, or difficult to remember. So, for years I kind of play what I can and like (which amounts pretty much to the same thing), but of course has great limits. Upon checking the dictionary, though, I do indeed half-hit some of those chords, on occasions, but am aiming for improvement by understanding and practice.

I like the keyboard a lot. It is easier in some ways than the guitar, but in other ways it's more difficult. They complement each other in my case, playing by ear, and having gathered only bits and pieces of "the big puzzle".

When something does not make sense in the keyboard, I try the guitar, then again, with the keyboard, I correct the guitar.

With the keyboard, via the pc, as I play, I find also that I indeed hit 'rare' chords and the screen does read often long names with 9's and other terms that I don't think I know.


But, isn't aim reality too?

Thanks again!

 

[RiceBag]

Yeah, although 'diminished chords' may be rarely written on a leadsheet, they're handy to know because of their 'join' type function between chords, eg C Major ->C#Dim -> Dm7 etc.

Another point though -

If you play 7b9 chords, a diminished chord is this starting on the 3rd:
eg C7b9 = C E G Bb Db is E diminished (E G Bb Db) with a C root, right?

Simon
=============================

Thank you, Simon for this jewel of help.

I will make every effort to luster myself with it, meaning I will investigate it with my own handwriting.

What you say about 'rarely written' indeed relates to my situation of being so ignorant of them for years.

Yes, I understand the basics of their function as "in-betweens", and I do like the way they sound, and the way that they can be used without having-to.

I realize, now more, that Jazz playing is in its very own class as such.

What I did not quite realize (although I had the hunch) is that I would get this kind of help in a Saxophone-oriented forum, for I believe that a Saxophone is not a chord-playing instrument, but there's so much that I am ignorant about.

Thanks so much, again. 🙂

 

[phil_edwards]

Hey, Ricebag, you don't sound too ignorant to me!

I think you've got a lot of this already worked out but, like most people, just need to get your thoughts confirmed by others from time to time. And as you've also noticed, there's some good musical brains around the forum. Most importantly, they're willing to share their knowledge with the rest.

In fact, we seem to have a few non-sax players (plus ex-guitar or keyboard) around now, who are all adding to the information from a wider perspective.

It really is a great forum, isn't it?

Phil

 

[RiceBag]

Yes, Phil

Sure is a great forum.

Happy playing, everyone.

 

[sam_moreton]

also, my main instrument is guitar so I can help you with applying it to the guitar

I use diminished chords all the time. The main thing is to get really comfortable with the diminished sound and how you would go about putting it into a song. Listen to this use of the G diminished chord in "Jeff Buckley - Lilac Wine" to understand what im talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DqZAXQqoag
^^ its at around 0:42

It's ok just using them as passing chords but never forget that its a chord of the major scale in its own right and can be applied to chord progressions, i.e. a vii iii vi ii V I in a major key. Its all cadances.

take an A diminished on the E string

e--x
B--x
G--5
D--4
A--6
E--5

To invert it, all you gotta do is move the shape up 3 frets to the C. To invert it again move it another 3 frets to the Eb.. then again to Gb. Its that easy.

do the same starting on the Ab and Bb and you got all 12 keys.

Let me know if you need anything else guitar related 🙂

 

[RiceBag]

Hi again, Sam,

And thanks for the video link (I liked it much and I did hear the use you mention).

Actually I realize that in slower pieces, not too far from what I am familiar with, I can indeed hear the difference from regular chords, but do admit to not being able to come up with the chord when they are rare to me, so up to now, I'd put something else, or skip it, but I am into improving precisely that.

I am also glad that you have detailed what you meant by "only three chords needed", for what I believe means 3 different patterns, moved up or down the frets, which I do have figured, and use, for regular chords. But please correct me if I am misinterpreting.

Other than that, it seems to me that I have more good help to chew upon and digest for quite a while, but I am grateful for your kindness in offering even further assistance, which by all means I would avoid to abuse of anyone.

All the best, everyone.

 

[RiceBag]

Hi once more, Sam.

And, again, correcting myself, I did find this note elsewhere in the web:

"Believe it or not, these three diminished chords (Cdim, Ddim and Edim) include
all the notes for all twelve dim chords!"

So, it is indeed CHORDS, and not patterns.

Sorry, will take it from there.