Theory & Impro Secondary Dominant function in the relative minor

[iainmcl]

Ok, so my theory teacher has given us a few questions about Secondary Dominants to answer. I kinda get the V of V thing and how it's leading chromatically ie: Cmaj7-D7-G7. Now he's gone a step further and asked us to "Show Secondary Dominant Function in the Relative Minor". This has a few of us scratching our heads a little. I can nearly grasp it, but not quite.
Is there a better way he could be asking this question so I know what he's getting at?

Is it as simple as moving it a 6th away? As in C to Ami.

BTW - Hi all, this is my first post here. I just found this forum and really dig the fact that such a resource exists >-iii-

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hi Iain

Welcome to the forum (you might like to post also in the doorbell section)

I presume you have covered minor harmony. Yes, it's almost that simple and your teacher's question is perfectly sensible IMO

You have said Cmaj7 - D7 - G7 = I - II7 (or V7 of V) - V7

In A minor that would be Amin - B7 - E7

 

[Simon]

Secondary Dominants are basically a bunch of b7 chords (usually 4-note chords written x7) that are from keys outside of the key they appear in.

2-5-1 : D7 - G7 - Cmaj7
(where the D7 is in for Dm7)

2-5-1 in Am (the relative minor of C) : B7 - E7 - Am
(where the B7 is in for Bm)

Of course, more fun is had when tryin things out...

Am - F7 - E7 - Am

Is the F7 replacing Fm? Or are we in Bb major temporarily?
For me it's a semitone up on E7... 😉

Bottom line: get the Cycle of Fourths thoroughly memorised and then try messing around with doms in and outside the key of C.
Minor harmony can take it!

Simon

iainmcl wrote:
Ok, so my theory teacher has given us a few questions about Secondary Dominants to answer. I kinda get the V of V thing and how it's leading chromatically ie: Cmaj7-D7-G7. Now he's gone a step further and asked us to "Show Secondary Dominant Function in the Relative Minor". This has a few of us scratching our heads a little. I can nearly grasp it, but not quite.
Is there a better way he could be asking this question so I know what he's getting at?

Is it as simple as moving it a 6th away? As in C to Ami.

BTW - Hi all, this is my first post here. I just found this forum and really dig the fact that such a resource exists >-iii-

 

[danmays]

Surely the F7 is just a tritone substitution of B7! In which case it should technically be an F7#11 😛

 

[Simon]

True - but thinking theory and then actually hearing and playing it are two different things for me. I mean, if you were going to practice playing F7->E7->Bm would you actually think "tritone sub of B7"? I don't - I'd look for a shortcut. It's a tension chord sound with a root a semitone up 😉

You could think (and play) the #4 thing can happen over any dominant... Fmaj7#4, Fm7#4... they could all be written that way. The natural 4th is either an avoid sound (major and dominant) or a bit dull (minor)...

Simon

DanMays wrote:
Surely the F7 is just a tritone substitution of B7! In which case it should technically be an F7#11 😛

 

[Pete Thomas]

I would consider the F7 to be a tritone substitute, but like Simon I probably wouldn't have that idea going round my brain if it already existed in the tune (e.g. Mr PC). I guess what would define a bVI7 as a substitution if you can "substitute it back" to an original II7 and it works in the tune.

However, I've never heard that a tritone substitution should be a #11.

It's almost true in classical music, in which the tritone sub had its derivation.

This happened by flattening the fifth and lowering it to the bass (2nd inversion)

e.g. G7 b5, you drop the Db down to make it the root and voila, a Db7 b5.

However in jazz tritone substitutes occur with and without the b5 (or #11)

 

[Simon]

Yep - using dominant #11s really depends on the melody. Sure you could learn a bunch of rules, but I find the easiest is hearing it.

If you're not sure what all this 'secondary dominant' 'dominant # 11' talk is about, have a listen to 'Tenderly', a jazz classic :

Eg one of my favourite 7#11 sounds is bar 2 of 'Tenderly', where the #11 is a strong note of the melody...

Fmaj7 | Bb7#11 | Fm7

Simon

 

[Pete Thomas]

simon wrote:
If you're not sure what all this 'secondary dominant' 'dominant # 11' talk is about, have a listen to 'Tenderly', a jazz classic :

or the second bar of Moon River

 

[Semiquaver]

Thanks Guys a fascinating discussion that has introduced me to the jazzstandards.com web site. Wow! What a site. A pity it is not in book form so I could read it on the train.

Regards.

 

[Moses]

Pete Thomas said:However, I've never heard that a tritone substitution should be a #11.

In my opinion, All tritone substitutions should contain #11.
for various reasons:

1-#11 becomes the target chord fifth.IVb7(#11) - V7 - Im.
2-#11 is a diatonic note (II of the scale).
3-Tritone substitution scale is Lydian b7.

Thanks again.
MOSES.