Saxophones Pork Tales: Saxophone Repair DIY Adventures.

Life around the barn.

Tales from a pig that likes to stick his nose into everything.

Paint that S. How difficult could it be ?

1) Search the net.
2) Find the color.
3) Order color.
4) Study task on University of YouTube, aka; For destruction by DYI presented by pro tech.

Do the cleaning & prep.

Paint and cleanup / detail the edges with hard cotton swabs. Sounds easy……

Yeah tha guy Matt makes it look easy.
Anyone remember your first experience cooking bacon crispy while still in the frying pan !

 

[PigSquealer]

This is why a $16 generic tenor set from Amazombie will not fit. On the left are close to a 16M set. Remember “set kits” are not exact.
On the right is the sizes from the generic set. Besides the diameters being off they’re too thick @ 4.7mm. A Conn usually requires 4.0mm.

FWIW if anyone actually took the time to review the sizes & count the pictured list…
1) The vendors supplied list has 23 pads listed. Sets are not always accurate !
2) The Amazombie list has 21 pads listed and most all don’t fit the diameters needed.
3) A 16M requires 24 pads of 4mm thickness +/-. Hopefully most being 4mm-4.2mm.

 

[thomsax]

Can be tricky to find pads to old american saxes. They were (most of them) designed in inches so often is a set of pads is not good way to buy pads. To buy and work with mm pads in ½ steps is more convient. The old Conn Reso Pad with metal ring are c 4,2 mm/.165 thick. These pads were meant for Conn saxes with rolled tones? Late Conns didn't have RTH ....... I used a thick .160 (c 4.0mm) to Martin/Indiana or a thick .160 to a Conns. Shellack is good to built up a slighty thin pad.

 

[PigSquealer]

Can be tricky to find pads to old american saxes. They were (most of them) designed in inches so often is a set of pads is not good way to buy pads. To buy and work with mm pads in ½ steps is more convient. The old Conn Reso Pad with metal ring are c 4,2 mm/.165 thick. These pads were meant for Conn saxes with rolled tones? Late Conns didn't have RTH ....... I used a thick .160 (c 4.0mm) to Martin/Indiana or a thick .160 to a Conns. Shellack is good to built up a slighty thin pad.

Yes, the early American horn key cups were sized in inches. 1/32” increments. Honestly a worthless system that’s difficult to use. The size system is still used by some American vendors. Even those have stickers showing both inch & MM.
I’ve never ordered a pad in inches. Metric system is just too easy to use.
The Conn Director 14M alto, 16M tenors never had RTH.

To the DIY hobbyist reading this post. Be aware that pads are available in different thicknesses, 4mm/ .160 to 5mm/ .200. Each sax maker may use a different thickness. Sometimes a different thickness in different positions on the same unit.
Some suppliers will make custom pads to your specifications. Size, leather type & color, felt type, cardboard backing and booster style.

 

[thomsax]

The Conn Director 14M alto, 16M tenors never had RTH.

That's goes for late 6M. 10M and 12 M as well. Still good sax but the rth were dropped in the 50's.

I’ve never ordered a pad in inches. Metric system is just too easy to use.

Funny. You prefer metric and I like inches better.

I used to buy/import saxes in/from USA. I started a part-time business selling USA saxes, accessories, books, records .... with the Rock & Roll Saxophone in focus. Half of the saxes (professional, vintage ) went to a proffesional woodwind tech , former SML employee, and the student/secondline saxes I tried to made playable myself. King 613/615, Indiana, Bundy II, Conn 14M and 16M ..... . I bought tools, pads, cork, felt ..... from Ferrees., Battle Creek, MI. As a student/secondline sax specialist 😉 I just ordered pads in inches. Less pads, better for the economy. Just .160" or .185" thick pads with small resonators. My "bible" back then was "Band Instrument Repair Manual" Erick D. Brand.

 

[Woodpad]

FWIW if anyone actually took the time to review the sizes & count the pictured list…
1) The vendors supplied list has 23 pads listed. Sets are not always accurate !
2) The Amazombie list has 21 pads listed and most all don’t fit the diameters needed.
3) A 16M requires 24 pads of 4mm thickness +/-. Hopefully most being 4mm-4.2mm.

I recently measured the required pad thickness for a post 1950 6M and most fell in the 4-4.3 mm range.
Three pads where outside this range, still in the top ten of most accurate made saxophones I have measured. I noticed quite a few places where the thickness of the tone hole rim was 0.3-0.4 mm instead of the 0.6 mm you might expect. Those places often need more care during padding and that brought this saxophone in the lower part of the top 10.

 

[LostCircuits]

Just look at some of the 1920s Bueschers, which need ~5 mm for the lower stack and ~ 4 mm for the upper stack, IIRC, 30 mm diameter was the cut off point.

 

[Ivan]

You prefer metric and I like inches better.

@thomsax, gotta love your style

You a Swedish Dude from a country renowned for innovation and the famous 1967 national effort of switching driving from the left to the right side of the road, overnight!

But, here, decades later, you are dragging your national system of measurement back from the decimal path to the imperial past!

 

[PigSquealer]

Just look at some of the 1920s Bueschers, which need ~5 mm for the lower stack and ~ 4 mm for the upper stack, IIRC, 30 mm diameter was the cut off point.

30mm ? Is that No.12 or No.15 🤷‍♂️
I’m looking at a 1929 Buescher catalog.

TT Series: Snap-On Pads

 

[PigSquealer]

Oops, I forgot to write down the pad thickness and rivet hole diameter. No big deal. Pad thickness is close to 5/32. Rivet is 3mm x 7/32 with 11/50ths (5.6mm, .2205”) head.

 

[thomsax]

@thomsax, gotta love your style

You a Swedish Dude from a country renowned for innovation and the famous 1967 national effort of switching driving from the left to the right side of the road, overnight!

But, here, decades later, you are dragging your national system of measurement back from the decimal path to the imperial past!

I like to renovate and work on old houses. The saxophone woodshed is built in 1893! Built with Swedish inches. The proportions are fine and easy to work with. It's the human that decide, not the metric stock. I prefer "4 tum/inches 4" instead of "95 x 95".

Sax pads on old american saxes, it's the dry fitting that decide. You have to decide the amount of shellac depending on the thickness of the pad or deepness of the key cups. That's why I prefer shellac! On second line/student sax it's often the old tools, which were used, that decide the size of the pad.

 

[thomsax]

Just look at some of the 1920s Bueschers, which need ~5 mm for the lower stack and ~ 4 mm for the upper stack, IIRC, 30 mm diameter was the cut off point.

I have some modern Buescher "snap-on pads" with metal back. Yes, the pads thickness is +4 mm on the smaller pads and nearly 5mm on the big pads. A 27 mm pad is +4 mm thick and the centerhole on the metal back is 5 mm. A 30 mm pad is +4 mm thick and the centerhole is 6 mm. The lagerest pad I have, 59 mm, is almost 5 mm thick and the centerhole is 9 mm. The centerhole is important when we talk about genuine Buescher "snap-on-pad" job.

And Milla, our Irish terrier, can confirm the fact!!!

 

[Targa]

@thomsax, gotta love your style

You a Swedish Dude from a country renowned for innovation and the famous 1967 national effort of switching driving from the left to the right side of the road, overnight!

But, here, decades later, you are dragging your national system of measurement back from the decimal path to the imperial past!

Imperial measurements are better, more ‘meaningful’ and mistakes are far less likely to be made.

 

[Ivan]

The proportions are fine and easy to work with. It's the human that decide, not the metric stock. I prefer "4 tum/inches 4" instead of "95 x 95".

To be fair, working with sheet materials and lumber in the UK, you quickly realise that although they are sold in metric measurements, the dimensions still conform to feet and inches

 

[LostCircuits]

30mm ? Is that No.12 or No.15 🤷‍♂️
I’m looking at a 1929 Buescher catalog.
View attachment 33904

TT Series: Snap-On Pads

If I could read the numbers I could tell you. But for reference, 1 inch = 25.4 mm 😏😁

 

[cappers]

I prefer "4 tum/inches 4" instead of "95 x 95".

4" = 101.6mm ?

 

[turf3]

Well, when you're talking about pads, or many other items of somewhat indeterminate size (soft goods, for example) you don't often know whether they were made to metric or imperial dimensions, however they may be labeled.

Sax pads are pliable and fit is not really all that critical as long as you err toward undersize, and 32nds and half mm are both fine enough increments, so break out the slide rule and convert those dimensions!

 

[PigSquealer]

If I could read the numbers I could tell you. But for reference, 1 inch = 25.4 mm 😏😁

Or 32/32.
But 45/32” 🤦‍♂️ 1-13/32 ! It’s a bunch easier and accurate @ 36mm IMHO.

 

[LostCircuits]

Well, when you're talking about pads, or many other items of somewhat indeterminate size (soft goods, for example) you don't often know whether they were made to metric or imperial dimensions, however they may be labeled.

Sax pads are pliable and fit is not really all that critical as long as you err toward undersize, and 32nds and half mm are both fine enough increments, so break out the slide rule and convert those dimensions!

That's how I handle it, Matt Stohrer on the other hand recommends going with the larger size, I never really quite understood it but I guess it is just another half full vs. half overflowing cup thing. I know he puts them in and then "irons" them, so that will work but I always thought it was a bit overkill. Pretty, though.

 

[LostCircuits]

Or 32/32.
But 45/32” 🤦‍♂️ 1-13/32 ! It’s a bunch easier and accurate @ 36mm IMHO.
View attachment 33930

Just think of 1/32 as 0.08mm instead of doing the 1-13/32.

 

[Stephen Howard]

That's how I handle it, Matt Stohrer on the other hand recommends going with the larger size, I never really quite understood it but I guess it is just another half full vs. half overflowing cup thing. I know he puts them in and then "irons" them, so that will work but I always thought it was a bit overkill. Pretty, though.

I've always gone oversize - typically half a mm. No particular need to iron them (with a hot iron) - the heating of the pad cup provides all the heat that's necessary on most occasions. Leaves me with a nice, relaxed pad with very little (if any) rolloff that's now a perfect fit in the key cup.
Not that I measure the cups; I can usually guess what size is required and then it's a case of going through the stock to find the fit I want.