Introduction Non saxophonist, but always a saxophonist.....

[Digidog]

With this post I just want to say hi, and let all you saxophone players know that there is at least one trombonist prowling the forum. Many years ago I began playing the soprano sax on a very nice borrowed old Conn and loved it, as I have a certain love for the soprano, but when I began to feel and realize that the embouchure of the soprano not complemented my trombone ditto, I sadly had to abandon my saxophone endeavour.....

The reason for me registering here (which I did some four years ago), is to have the possibility to directly ask saxophone related musical questions (as I already have done). I partly work as a composer and arranger of music for all sorts of ensembles, and I (usually) have a very good grasp of instrumentation, but to have the option of asking direct, open questions to a community playing a certain instrument is often very useful. I regard it as research and access to a source of knowledge and practise.

So: Hello everybody! I hope that you can bear with my eventual questions and my not complete grasp of the saxophones and their practise.

 

[Jeanette]

Welcome to the café, good to have you here. Ask away 😁

Jx

 

[Tenor Viol]

Hi, welcome

 

[DavidUK]

Welcome. Your questions may help others too so fire away when ready.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Welcome aboard.
Have heard Ira Sullivan switch from Sax
to Trumpet on many occasions.
Sadly, never heard him on Flugelhorn,
my favorite Brasswind.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Welcome to the cafe, @Digidog!

What a great initiative as a composer/arranger! I've always wondered how composers/arrangers are able to target specific 'ability levels' in their compositions/arrangements. For example: Guide to Rating Your Music: Where Range and Grade Level Intersect — ArrangeMe Blog.

I've played (with much joy!) in amateur 'Big Bands' for some 30 years. Though my general musical ability (sight reading, dynamics, timing, phrasing, etc.) has gradually improved over the years, my 'technical abilities' in playing fast runs are still pretty limited. In my experience the level of 'ability' in amateur Big Bands is mixed. There are some 'advanced intermediates' who can play pretty much anything with ease. There are 'intermediates' - and even 'beginning intermediates' who play their instrument well enough to join the band. But they are still on a learning curve w.r.t. sight-reading, timing, dynamics, etc. But I have no doubt that that they'll get there!

In my (local amateur) experience, there are always certain Big Band sections ( trumpets, trombones, saxes) that find certain sections of music 'challenging' (or "impossible" to play!). Trumpets sometimes complain about the difficulty in reaching 'high notes' or playing awkward intervals. Saxes sometimes find it challenging to play fast and awkward (in terms of keys) runs perfectly in synch.

So I applaud you for taking the time and effort to dig deeper into what an arrangement aimed at a specific ability level might mean for different (amateur) instrument groups!

Mike

PS. I've even come across - what I assume is based on a generic 'instrument learning' video - a sax learning video on YouTube that included a 'bottom A". Which doesn't exist on a sax 😉

 

[Wonko]

PS. I've even come across - what I assume is based on a generic 'instrument learning' video - a sax learning video on YouTube that included a 'bottom A". Which doesn't exist on a sax 😉

Well, it does exist on (modern) baritones, and I have read about alto's that also have a low A.
But I agree that this guy probably doesn't know too much about the saxophone.

 

[Pete Thomas]

and I have read about alto's that also have a low A.

Yes, I had one once. But no half decent composer or arranger would write a low A for alto. Nor low Bb or B unless they want it loud and honking.

 

[Pete Thomas]

With this post I just want to say hi, and let all you saxophone players know that there is at least one trombonist prowling the forum

Good to know, and welcome

 

[Jeanette]

With this post I just want to say hi, and let all you saxophone players know that there is at least one trombonist prowling the forum

I did wonder if any more might be lurking.

I recall being enthralled by the trombones playing at a gig I went to a few years ago in the rebel yell jazz orchestra. Loved them

 

[MikeMorrell]

Well, it does exist on (modern) baritones, and I have read about alto's that also have a low A.
But I agree that this guy probably doesn't know too much about the saxophone.

Interesting! Thanks for this! I'd always just (wrongly) assumed that all saxes went down to B-flat.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Yes, I had one once. But no half decent composer or arranger would write a low A for alto. Nor low Bb or B unless they want it loud and honking.

As far as tenor sax is concerned, I would humbly submit that a 'loud and honking' (or not) B or Bb is largely a question of practice. In other words, I know in advance that a low B or Bb is likely to 'honk' unless I take 'specIal care' (breath, intonation) not to let that happen. The real challenge, IMHO, is playing a 'controlled' low B or Bb from a much higher interval.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I would humbly submit that a 'loud and honking' (or not) B or Bb is largely a question of practice.

I would disagree based on my arranging and instrumental technique teachers at college. @Pete Effamy may or may not concur (he was at the same college) but for the same reason you don't write (middle) C for flute if it is meant to be leading a woodwind section - and then blame the flautist for not being loud enough. Nor do you write top E for lead trumpet unless you know the player.

The people I learned from were arranging and composing at a very high level and they would not write low Bb for saxophone.

Listen to the great saxophone sections and see if you can hear Ellington, Strayhorn etc. writing low B or Bb for saxophones. I think you are unlikely to but I'll be the first to eat my hat.

These are conventions for arrangers when looking at the possible range and realistic range.

 

[mizmar]

Interesting.

Apart from - usable - range, I wondered how much Idiocracy of instruments comes into it? For example, from my limited experience, different instruments accommodate different decorations differently. Maybe different trills work differently based on keys, the break etc?
Isn't there a pile of stuff it's hard to know how to exploit or avoid without being reasonably competent?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Isn't there a pile of stuff it's hard to know how to exploit or avoid without being reasonably competent?

Yes indeed.

That is why we had classes in arranging, composition and (what you are touching on here) was called instrumental technique. Those classes did indeed involve stuff that was beyond practical range: we learned that you can't do vibrato on an open string on violin, that certain trills were difficult impossible etc, its takes time for a trumpet player to put in or take out a mute. That even if they can play high C, D E G etc., they can't do it too often or for sustained periods.

It's an issue when people compose/arrange who haven't learned that stuff and just rely on MIDI.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I would disagree based on my arranging and instrumental technique teachers at college. @Pete Effamy may or may not concur (he was at the same college) but for the same reason you don't write (middle) C for flute if it is meant to be leading a woodwind section - and then blame the flautist for not being loud enough. Nor do you write top E for lead trumpet unless you know the player.

The people I learned from were arranging and composing at a very high level and they would not write low Bb for saxophone.

Listen to the great saxophone sections and see if you can hear Ellington, Strayhorn etc. writing low B or Bb for saxophones. I think you are unlikely to but I'll be the first to eat my hat.

These are conventions for arrangers when looking at the possible range and realistic range.

I do agree. Ideally, you write for the “meat” of the instrument - where they sound best, and can be played best, unless you want something specific and know that your band/player can deliver it.