Low pitch, what's it mean?

[phil_edwards]

There is a note about a Beuscher in the yard sale, and Petelinked to one on ebay where it says "It is a low pitch alto meaning it is compatible with our modern system of tuning (A=440)".

What's that all about then (not the A=440 bit, I know that) ? I've often wondered what it meant by low pitch on the back of my Martin. Was there a high-pitch? What were they if they weren't low-pitch? When did that come about?

Hope I'm not a complete dumbo asking this. A quick history lesson required, please.

regards, Phil

 

[spike]

Ello Phil, yes there was a high pitch (H) it was about A=457 if my memory serves me well. They did a lot of funny things in those days. Don't know the historical reasons, but I suspect it might have something to do with classical tuning, even today the serious musical people are more highly tuned than we normal folk. gruss - spike

Okay just checked my history books. EDIT.

In 1859 A=435 was established as standard. It wasn't until 1939 in London that A=440 became recognized as standard tuning, Saxes from Adolph sax for instance were "custom" made to be in tune amongst themselves. So it's advisable to be careful with vintage horns made before 1939 and to check how they're tuned. It should be noted that the higher tuned the horn the more dodgy the intonation. Buffet made two different series of horns for a while, these are stamped E (for European) with a tuning of A=442 intended for classical use and A (for American) with a tuning of A=440. Not a silly question at all, in fact once again very interesting topic. gruss - spike

 

[Linky Lee]

Indeed, before the standard was set, different manufacturers tuned to different pitches.

It's fine playing a high pitched instrument until you come and play with anything more modern. You'll need to adjust your intonation a fair bit which is incredibly hard work and you might as well buy a low pitch instrument for the amount of hassle it will save you.

I've only ever seen one high pitch saxophone. They're pretty rare. Like valve trombonists. Never seen one live before, then in Newbury over Christmas at an open mic night two turn up at the same time! I asked them if they ran Reading buses.

 

[Bobby G]

To an untrained ear (but discerning nonetheless), how much difference is there between 440 and 435? Presumably noticeable. What would be the value of, say, Bb or Ab?

Cheers, Bob

 

[rhysonsax]

See this article on SOTW: http://www.saxontheweb.net/Resources/Pitch.html

If you're comfortable with a bit of maths, then read on:

Take the freqency of concert A as 440 Hz (cycles per second). This is actually written as A4 and all the other As are related to it by doubling/halving the frequency. So A3 is 220 Hz, A2 is 110 Hz, A1 is 55 Hz, A0 is 27.5 Hz. A5 is 880Hz, A6 is 1760 Hz and so on.

An octave spans a doubling of frequency, say from 440 to 880 Hz. There are 12 semitones in an octave so each semitone upwards raises the frequency/pitch by the twelth root of two, or a factor of 1.05946...... This is close to an increase of 6% which is a value often used for quick calculations.

So the semitone above A4, which is Bb4 would have a frequency of 1.05946 x 440 = 466.16 Hz.

There are 100 cents in a semitone - and these are the measures you will often see on an electronic chromatic tuner. 50 cents would mean halfway between one note and the next, a quarter tone and really badly out of tune.

Taking a semitone to be 6% higher frequency, then one cent would be 0.06% higher frequency.

So tuning to 442Hz (modern European concert pitch) would be 442/440 = 1.0045454 or about ((1-1.004545) / (1-1.05946)) x 100 = 7.6 cents sharp compared with 440 Hz (pretty close).

But on an HP instrument, A at 457 Hz would be about 65 cents sharp, or more than a quarter tone. That's closer to Bb4 at 466.16 Hz than it is to our A4 at 440 Hz. Ouch !

********************************

Phew !

But when I'm tuning my sax I can easily move the mouthpiece on the cork to change the pitch by about 30 cents and keep the whole horn pretty much in tune. More than that and it will throw other parts of the horn badly out of tune.

So don't worry about instruments that are nominally A440 and A442 playing together, but steer well clear of HP, A457 instruments.

*****************************

Does that help ?

Sorry if it hurts people's heads or brings back memories of maths classes.

Rhys

 

[Bobby G]

Thanks rhys, well put, and my head is not hurting. It's also useful to know about the 'cents' idea, which I've seen mentioned before and had an assumption about, which has proved to be basically correct.

Nice to be educated rather than lectured at 😉

Cheers, Bob

 

[Rogerb]

Thanks from me, too... it was a question lurking in the back of my head 🙂
And as Bob says, nicely explained .

 

[robaldo]

While we're getting mathsy, does anyone know the physical reasons why the alto and tenor saxes have varying tuning across the range?

For example, I have terrible trouble with getting the higher notes of my tenor in tune after playing on my alto; almost crippling enough for me to consider ditching playing one or other.

 

[Linky Lee]

no wind instrument plays in tune.

You have to play them in tune.

This is because the western 12 semi-tones to an actove is a compromise, we split an octave into 12 equal bits and call them semi-tones, when in reality some are always flat and others are always sharp. This is because our ears function slightly different to pitch in nature.

So why do we have it if it's 'wrong'? Well it enables us to play with people who are in different keys.

In the Tudor times when this system wasn't around, a flute in C couldn't play with a clarinet in Bb. This is because the D sounded by the clarinet was slightly flatter than the D produced by the flute (it may of been sharper, I'm not sure), because semi-tones aren't equally spaced throughout the octave.

This meant if you wanted to play with other instruments, you had to have an instrument for that specific key.

You can find some pianos and harpsichords that have split keys, one is slightly sharp the other is slightly flat. This allows it to play in any key signature depending which part of the key they use.

I don't know the maths behind it I'm afraid, but there's bound to be someone who does.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Linky_Lee wrote:
You can find some pianos and harpsichords that have split keys, one is slightly sharp the other is slightly flat. This allows it to play in any key signature depending which part of the key they use.

E.G. This harpsichord (which belongs to my wife)