Saxophones Jay Metcalf's (Conn-Selmer) BetterSax Alto (and now Tenor too)

[turf3]

When the cost of manufacturing exceeds what the market will support, the company will go bankrupt.

The cost of manufacturing feeds into the price point you want / can sell at... Particularly for labour intensive steps, like QA.. important in this context... And Boeing

Yes, everyone knows that you've got to sell it for more than it cost you. But the cost of manufacturing is irrelevant to the value the customer is willing to pay for the product.

I'll point out too that the idea "QA costs more" is only true for poorly defined processes without proper control. Yes, if you try to inspect quality into the product once it's built, it'll cost more. So don't do that. See "Toyota Production System".

 

[mizmar]

In economics, the price is what the customer pays, the value is what they (think) they get. And the cost is the whole cost; from purchasing manufacturing inputs, through manufacturing, to delivering the product and paying admin, advertising, overheads etc.
Your view, seems too narrow to me, for out purposes.

As for QA. If you like, but a good part of Stephen's review was critical of QA, and that's often the case. Many reviews of newer horns include a "shouldn't have left the factory/shop set-up like that". Toyota or not. Them's the facts.

 

[Guenne]

"shouldn't have left the factory/shop set-up like that"

That's true for many manifacturers.
That leaves the question how much to spend on a new horn, if your tech has to spend another week on a setup and is the reason I always go for 23s, 25s I can at a low price for my students.
When they are repaired and setup they beat any of these shiny and hyped horns.

Some years ago I needed a couple of sopranos for very young beginners.
I had to get them at a low price.
So, what to buy, if the price for the cheapest Sop at Thomann is €600 (and I'd never buy that crap)?
I have a friend in Germany who bought some at a shop where they mainly sell noodles and leetchie compote. He invested the time to change all the parts that would have caused malfunction sooner or later (he could take a look at some and choose the ones he had minimum work).
That put the price from €350,- to €750,- (and still was kind of a friendship service), but 5 years later they horns still play perfectly.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[mizmar]

I can at a low price for my students.

But that's the whole issue.
You can. You have knowledge and resources, and are prepared to, more or less, given that to your students.
Someone just starting or a parent with a kid or such, doesn't; has no way of judging if their purchasing well or badly. So, what to do? They look for "signals" - money back guarantees, brand recognition, recommendation reputation, internet profile... A very few ask here and, I'd guess lots of folks search and watch videos about learning to play, and then message the channel asking for purchasing recommendations. I can see Jay going "I might just be able to make an own brand product work" and fair enough.

my issue is that a lot of folks who think this is obviously bad, aren't looking at the picture from the perspective of neophytes.

 

[thomsax]

Many shops-/import saxes are more or less sold without QC. And the shops that sell these saxes don't have a tech in the shop.

Mass and high volume costs. I wrote the other day about a guy who used to drive down to B&S factory and collected (pre-paid) Weltklang and B&S saxes. He didn't buy a container full of saxes, he just bought saxes that his Volvo 245 + a small trailer could hold. Back home he gave the saxes new pads, corks and felts + a prober set-up. He was a former professional clarinet and saxophone player that started to teach. And when his ears and patience failed him he moved out on the countryside and opened a small shop+workshop.

Less is always more!!

 

[skeller047]

Jay Metcalf, a well known Yani fanboy, did a video on Yanagisawa manufacturing process a few months ago, and their goal is to produce a horn so effectively that it doesn’t need play testing. Yanagisawas have a reputation of being very well set up so that no extra shop time is needed.

Let’s hope that Conn-Selmer, Bundy and Better Sax imitate that aspect of Yanagisawa too… Although, at least in the US, Better Sax horns are sold by Sweetwater, and they claim to have a thorough check and setup procedure for every instrument they sell. I think there is a department at Sweetwater that sells bridges in Brooklyn, too…

 

[turf3]

Jay Metcalf, a well known Yani fanboy, did a video on Yanagisawa manufacturing process a few months ago, and their goal is to produce a horn so effectively that it doesn’t need play testing. Yanagisawas have a reputation of being very well set up so that no extra shop time is needed.

Let’s hope that Conn-Selmer, Bundy and Better Sax imitate that aspect of Yanagisawa too… Although, at least in the US, Better Sax horns are sold by Sweetwater, and they claim to have a thorough check and setup procedure for every instrument they sell. I think there is a department at Sweetwater that sells bridges in Brooklyn, too…

"OK, what's this thing?"
"Says here Tenor Sax".
"Let's see, tenor sax, tenor sax, tenor sax - OK, here's the checklist. Open it up and let's see."
"All right:
Neck - I guess it's this bendy looking tube, in the accessories compartment. Check.
Strap - yeah, check.
Mouthpiece - I guess it's the little black thing here. Check.
Pair white cotton gloves. Check.
Keys for the case. Check.
'Check action' - what's that mean? Wiggle the keys. Do they all wiggle? OK. Check."
"Let's close this thing up and get to the guitars!"

 

[Pete Thomas]

Neck - I guess it's this bendy looking tube, in the accessories compartment. Check.

That is quite a generous assumption. A guitar neck is straight. And already attached. So anyone who knows nothing about a saxophone is unlikely to realise the bendy bit of tube its "the neck."

It's not easy to step aside and look at things from another perspective.

They might see "mouthpiece" on the checklist and look for something that might fit in your mouth. Then see the ligature and think "oh yes that could go in your mouth."

 

[Targa]

"OK, what's this thing?"
"Says here Tenor Sax".
"Let's see, tenor sax, tenor sax, tenor sax - OK, here's the checklist. Open it up and let's see."
"All right:
Neck - I guess it's this bendy looking tube, in the accessories compartment. Check.
Strap - yeah, check.
Mouthpiece - I guess it's the little black thing here. Check.
Pair white cotton gloves. Check.
Keys for the case. Check.
'Check action' - what's that mean? Wiggle the keys. Do they all wiggle? OK. Check."
"Let's close this thing up and get to the guitars!"

Well at least in your scenario they took it out of the case which is more than I think sax.co.uk did with a soprano I bought of them and the octave mechanism was way out, it opened both holes together.
A few weeks ago I picked up a friend's sax, Yamaha 280 bought new from them a couple of years ago, and found low B was impossible. Friend said they'd never been able to get that note and the teacher had said it just needed practise.
Put on my specs and the pad when 'closed' had about 1mm gap. The cork behind the left pinky keys was about 3mm and never been touched, it's now 1.5mm and the note is perfect.

 

[mizmar]

which is more than I think sax.co.uk did

Yeah. Sax.sweetwater.g4m are an interesting part of the equation. Their handling costs are probably about the same for an alto from Jay, Yamaha, selmar.. same size, weight, number of bits, shipping costs, etc. And they probably take X% per sale. So the % from a YAS280 might hardly pay for 1/4 hour of tech time while the % from a Selmer might pay for a solid shake down.

Man hours can be a killer.
Better business to sell electric pianos etc.

 

[Pete Effamy]

You lot really are just a load of grumpy old men.

 

[mizmar]

You lot really are just a load of grumpy old men.

In my case not grumpy, dismal. Economics, innit.

 

[skeller047]

You lot really are just a load of grumpy old men.

And your point is????

 

[mizmar]

So, there a McGill video on YouTube, interviewing the sax.co.uk marketing manager about their new, in house, line.
Grumpy? This video triggered my inner cynic, my outer cynic and my middle cynic.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Grumpy old men? But it’s an internet forum. We however are more inclusive and also encourage grumpy old women, of any age and degree of grumpiness.

 

[Targa]

Grumpy old men? But it’s an internet forum. We however are more inclusive and also encourage grumpy old women, of any age and degree of grumpiness.

Dwarves of any demeanour must be accompanied by an female adult.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Grumpy old men? But it’s an internet forum. We however are more inclusive and also encourage grumpy old women, of any age and degree of grumpiness.

Ok then. Grumpy they.